# Can I request a refund from the town and state for a traffic violation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 23, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041 "2013-12-23T21:31:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nisslbody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e36b37/32.png) [@Nisslbody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nisslbody)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/41 "2013-12-25T01:01:58Z")
> [@kaltkalt](#): > > in the future, remember that in most jurisdictions in the US, the speed limit is just a presumptive guide for what the “reasonable and prudent speed” should be. You should be able to show that based on the circumstances you were going a reasonable and prudent speed and rebut the presumption of the specific speed limit in effect. > > A few years ago I was driving home from Austin to Houston on xmas day - it was bright and sunny, barely any cars on the road, and I had a new sports car made to go fast. I was going around 95 in a 70 zone, and despite it being xmas i got a ticket. I wanted to argue that based on the circumstances, along with my otherwise perfect driving record, at that time, in those clear traffic conditions, in my car, on that sunny day 95 was in fact a reasonable and prudent speed for me. For an old person in a beat up pickup truck? No. However, to challenge the ticket I would have had to drive over 100 miles back to the county that issued it, and I was eligible for defensive driving to get the ticket dismissed. So I just sucked it up and did that. But had challenging it not involved a 200 mile round trip, I absolutely would have done so, and demanded a jury trial. On those wide, clear xmas day freeways on a nice sunny day, in a new Nissan 350Z I contend that 90-100mph is absolutely a reasonable and prudent speed based on the circumstances. If by “most jurisdictions in the US” you mean “Montana”, then yes, the posted speed is merely a suggestion for what is reasonable and prudent. If you mean any other state, you are very incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/42 "2013-12-25T01:08:22Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > At that temperature, you’d have to be somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere, so few people would understand what a “mile” is. Just tell the judge you thought it said 70 K, which is 43.496 MPH. Even 95 K would be 59.0303 MPH. I think we’ve got a case here! Yeah. Sounds good to me, and I’d snow the judge with technobabble. “Your honour, my dashboard display was on the metric setting, which I use at home, so while I was trying to find the Fahrenheit satellite radio dial, I forgot and drove at 110 km/h.” ---
**Author:** ![randompattern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@randompattern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randompattern)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/43 "2013-12-25T01:32:46Z")
I just wonder why after such a long time it’s so important to now get it reversed / refunded. There seems to be more to this story than what is being told. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/44 "2013-12-25T01:37:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I still want to know what it means that you did everything “humanly possible” to obey the speed limit? Did God create a soul tie between your foot and the accelerator pedal? > [@randompattern](#): > > I just wonder why after such a long time it’s so important to now get it reversed / refunded. There seems to be more to this story than what is being told. Probably a soul tie. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/45 "2013-12-25T01:38:43Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > At that temperature, you’d have to be somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere, so few people would understand what a “mile” is. Doesn’t Australia still use miles? Or New Zealand? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/46 "2013-12-25T03:23:24Z")
> [@Nisslbody](#): > > If by “most jurisdictions in the US” you mean “Montana”, then yes, the posted speed is merely a suggestion for what is reasonable and prudent. If you mean any other state, you are very incorrect. It’s not most states, but there are [several states](http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html) (not including Montana) where the posted speed limit is not always an absolute speed limit. (I suspect the number of successful defenses against a _prima facie_ speeding charge is very, very, very small, making it just a theoretical issue.) ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/47 "2013-12-25T03:40:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Several years ago I was issues a traffic ticket for disobeying a traffic control device, which was plead down from exceeding the speed limit. > > My moral issue was I made ever effort that could be expected humanly possible to obey the posted limit. > > On the moral basis I would like to request a refund for the fine, as I was obeying as much as humanly possible. How can I go about doing this? Why didn’t your guardian angel convince the cop not to issue the ticket in the first place? I don’t understand your OP. How could it have even have happened in the first place??? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/48 "2013-12-25T04:50:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My main point though is it is impossible for humans to obey a posted limit all the time because we are human, and we should not be held to the standard of 100% compliance simply because we can not meet it - even when we try, which I was. Punishment does not equal correction, therefor is invalid as it does no good. Your Honor, as a species Homo Sapiens are an inherently violent bunch of primates. How is it possible to be held to the standard of 100% never choking a bitch. I should not be held to a standard that could not possibly be met. Besides, my wife pissed me off. A verdict of not guilty must be found on moral grounds. The defense rests. > [@randompattern](#): > > I just wonder why after such a long time it’s so important to now get it reversed / refunded. There seems to be more to this story than what is being told. It’s Kanic. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/49 "2013-12-25T04:54:16Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Your Honor, as a species Homo Sapiens are an inherently violent bunch of primates. How is it possible to be held to the standard of 100% never choking a bitch. I should not be held to a standard that could not possibly be met. Besides, my wife pissed me off. A verdict of not guilty must be found on moral grounds. The defense rests… If that won you an acquittal, it’d be a Festivus miracle! ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/50 "2013-12-25T05:13:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My main point though is it is impossible for humans to obey a posted limit all the time because we are human, and we should not be held to the standard of 100% compliance simply because we can not meet it - even when we try, which I was. Punishment does not equal correction, therefor is invalid as it does no good. I don’t think you could have successfully argued this point at the time, let alone a couple years later. I fail to see how it is a moral issue (a philosophical one, maybe). Don’t waste your time (or embarrass yourself) by trying to challenge it now. Your “Nobody’s Perfect” defense is a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/51 "2013-12-25T06:08:57Z")
> [@kaltkalt](#): > > I think it would have a reasonable chance of working if it were argued correctly. The speed limit is only a presumption. All legal presumptions can be rebutted. > > if you can’t safely drive 95 in what was then a 1 year old new sportscar then you shouldn’t be allowed to drive. I didn’t feel very safe going 100 in my old Ford Explorer. It rattled/wobbled from the wind and clearly wasn’t meant to safely go that fast. My 350Z goes 100 and you wouldn’t even realize it without looking at the speedometer. > > I’m also talking about a big, wide texas freeway. Texas is a fucked up place in many situations but we have the best highways in the country. We spend the most on them, apparently. TxDOT spends more on roads than most small countries. The highway I was on is a very nice road. Not a single pothole, nice wide lanes, very smooth. The speed limit is currently 80 on most stretches there now, which means 95 is just 15mph over the limit. Everyone routinely goes 15mph over the speed limit without much thought. I’d argue that the reasonable and prudent speed is always 15mph over the posted limit, because the otherwise reasonable limit is artificially deflated to accommodate incompetent morons and old fucktards who shouldn’t be allowed to drive in the first place. > > But out society isn’t mature enough to even have an adult conversation about having drivers’ licenses automatically expire when you turn, say, 70 years old. Maybe some over 70 in unusually good health could apply for an exception renewable every 2-3 years. But no, because YOUR 3-foot tall great grandmother is a “really good driver” according to you, and because she baked cookies during WWII, all old people should be able to endanger the public and suggesting otherwise means you hate all old people and want to stick them all in concentration camps. But I digress… There are two major routes between Austin and Houston: US290 and SH71/IH10. I am intimately familiar with both routes, especially the 71/10 route. There is no spot on either route that has a posted speed limit of 80. The only highway I can think of in Central Texas with a posted limit of 80 is SH130, which runs roughly parallel to IH35 (not toward Houston). In fact, its speed limit is 85 in some places. The speed limits on 290, 71, and 10 range from 55 to 75. Your vehicle can likely safely handle 95+ mph. Did it occur to you, however, that you do not control everything on the highway? Perhaps a car pulling out from a side street would not be able to tell that you were coming at him/her like a bat out of Hades. You may think you’re safe, but everyone else may not share in that opinion. As someone who travels that same route very often (and has a number of loved-ones who also travel that same route), I respectfully ask you to slow your ass down. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/52 "2013-12-26T20:23:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > . . . My main point though is it is impossible for humans to obey a posted limit all the time because we are human, and we should not be held to the standard of 100% compliance simply because we can not meet it - even when we try, which I was. Punishment does not equal correction, therefor is invalid as it does no good. When I went to court to pay a late fix-it ticket\*, the judge played a video of “procedural details” supposedly to help us with our pleadings but actually to list a number of excuses that were commonly given, but that just wouldn’t fly, so don’t even bother stating them. One of them was driving along at the “established rate of speed” of all the other cars on the road. I think that just falling in with the established rate of speed of all the other cars on the road is an extremely human thing to do. I’ve even heard people say that it’s not safe to go slower, and I’m sure the judge has heard that, too. Unfortunately, as the video stated, the typical driver on State Hwy 99 is travelling 15 miles over the speed limit, and that’s against the law. So if you fall in with that, and you get a ticket, you have to pay the ticket, even if there were other people going faster who didn’t get ticketed. - Fun fact. If you borrow a car and get pulled over for a fix-it ticket, you are responsible for getting the ticket validated even if that means you have to pay for extensive repairs to someone else’s car. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/53 "2013-12-26T22:04:58Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > She even apologized to me in court. What the hell for?😕 > [@kanicbird](#): > > My main point though is it is impossible for humans to obey a posted limit all the time because we are human, and we should not be held to the standard of 100% compliance simply because we can not meet it - even when we try, which I was. Punishment does not equal correction, therefor is invalid as it does no good. This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read on these boards. What makes it even more absurd is that all this happened a long time ago and isn’t even a current issue of your life. This is just a rather strange thread. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/54 "2013-12-26T22:10:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read on these boards. What makes it even more absurd is that all this happened a long time ago and isn’t even a current issue of your life. This is just a rather strange thread. It could be more ridiculous. We could be talking about raping a tied up person in the forest. And after all, we’re all human, so we can’t be held to a 100% level of compliance with the law. A little rape now and then is pretty much unavoidable, right? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/55 "2013-12-26T22:25:40Z")
I’m always perplexed as to why people plead guilty to traffic violations. They think by “pleading them down” they’re saving a tremendous amount in fine money but that’s not always the case. Also, any violation on your record is going to be noticed by your insurance company. “Disobeying a traffic sign” is no less serious than Speeding to an auto insurance carrier. Except for things like DWI & reckless driving, a violation is a violation. By burning half a vacation day from work and demanding a trial you’re making the system earn it’s money. Theres even a chance the officer doesn’t show up or says something stupid on the stand and the case get’s kicked. At least go down fighting! \*This is not legal advice, I am not an attorney. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/56 "2013-12-27T01:01:23Z")
> [@kaltkalt](#): > > I’d argue that the reasonable and prudent speed is always 15mph over the posted limit, because the otherwise reasonable limit is artificially deflated to accommodate incompetent morons and old fucktards who shouldn’t be allowed to drive in the first place. This is incorrect for at least two reasons: 1. Even in states without absolute speed limits, the posted limit has a “prima facie” presumption of being correct. Arguing that the posted limit is “always” 15mph too slow is counter to the law stating that the limit is presumptively correct. 2. Your driving skill has little bearing on the maximum allowable speed. The state has clearly intended for one limit to be applicable for all drivers based upon traffic flow. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. must travel as the same speed as me on the public roadway. The legislature didn’t write the speeding laws with the intent of creating a “sliding scale” speed limit based upon intent. Arguing that you are an extra-good driver goes against this clear intention and doesn’t take into account factors other than your driving. I can’t imagine the “I was travelling faster than the posted limit but I was still driving safely” defense ever working unless you are talking about a very special section of road where the state clearly and plainly screwed up and placed a speed limit so horribly incorrect and obvious to all reasonable people. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/57 "2013-12-27T01:04:41Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > They think by “pleading them down” they’re saving a tremendous amount in fine money but that’s not always the case. From what I’ve heard, you are correct that the difference in the size of the fine usually doesn’t justify the time involved. But if the difference is in the number of points assigned to one’s record, that can be very significant indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/58 "2013-12-27T01:35:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > “I was travelling faster than the posted limit but I was still driving safely” Not the US, but apparently, some cop in the UK managed to successfully make that defense in the UK. Karma keeps track, I guess, because [he died](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/05/police-officer-cleared-dangerous-driving) in a car wreck going over 90 in a 40 zone. This is a police officer who is ostensibly so good at driving that other police officers were vouching for his high speed car driving skills. And he was still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/59 "2013-12-27T02:02:41Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > From what I’ve heard, you are correct that the difference in the size of the fine usually doesn’t justify the time involved. But if the difference is in the number of points assigned to one’s record, that can be very significant indeed. YMMV depending on the state, but not really. Around here “defective equipment” is one of the most common plead downs. It’s a 2 point violation. Speeding is a 3. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041/60 "2013-12-27T13:28:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Punishment does not equal correction, therefor is invalid as it does no good. This line of argument is most unlikely to be of any use in a courtroom. Courts are pretty much founded on the principle that punishment deters future bad behavior, both by the guilty and by those who might consider engaging in similar actions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-request-a-refund-from-the-town-and-state-for-a-traffic-violation/677041.md?page=4)