# Can I -- Should I? -- use Lilith in a story/book? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 9, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751 "2013-10-09T04:26:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/41 "2013-10-09T17:18:06Z")
Forget about “Lilith.” Too much baggage and too many associations. Why don’t you be totally inventive and invent/create a sister of Lilith. A hair or a tear of Lilith’s fell to the ground and during that hyper-fertile time of Creation\*, it somehow grew into a woman who was unknown until she popped up in your story? You can name her anything you want. \*Like during the creation of Narnia when the lamppost took root and grew in what became Lantern Waste. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/42 "2013-10-09T17:19:33Z")
Huh, the DC character is named “Lilith Clay”? There’s a character in _Girl Genius_ who went by that name (not her real name, but she was in hiding). ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/43 "2013-10-09T17:21:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And in addition to all the other references people have brought up, Lilith was also a powerful demoness in the Diablo games (you could fight her, under certain extreme circumstances, in Diablo II-- She looked like Andariel, and did an absolutely insane amount of poison damage). She’s an antagonist in the MMO _The Secret World_, too, in which she’s a remnant of a former age of the world. She describes herself as the mother (in an ancestral sense) of every monstrous thing in the world, and apparently bears a grudge against Samael. She does not appear to be a vampire herself, but I gather that a vampire queen is one of her pawns. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/44 "2013-10-09T17:28:41Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Forget about “Lilith.” Too much baggage and too many associations. > > Why don’t you be totally inventive and invent/create a sister of Lilith. A hair or a tear of Lilith’s fell to the ground and during that hyper-fertile time of Creation\*, it somehow grew into a woman who was unknown until she popped up in your story? You can name her anything you want. > > \*Like during the creation of Narnia when the lamppost took root and grew in what became Lantern Waste. I’d totally read that. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/45 "2013-10-09T17:47:09Z")
I think of Lilith from Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/46 "2013-10-09T18:16:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sigh… They’re only about a thousand times more popular than my story is ever likely to be. > [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Just write the story. If it’s good it’ll work, if not it won’t. Won’t know until you do it. Therefore you’re not really competing with them and don’t have to worry about what they are doing. I’m not into the genre, but I know there’s a history of using Lillith in these kinds of contexts either as a vampire or reclaimed feminist character or both. [Wikipedia lists some examples here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillith#In_Western_literature) I think **Simplicio** is right that fans would know that. The bigger concern to me would be this: > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Forget about “Lilith.” Too much baggage and too many associations. I have no idea what kind of story you want to do, but I think you’re invoking a well-known trope here. If you’re using Lillith the same way lots of other people have used the character, it’s not that interesting. If you have a new twist or a new character that would be different. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/47 "2013-10-09T18:17:49Z")
Yeah, I’m with the others who say that True Blood shouldn’t be what stops you from using the name Lilith. My first association is actually with the anime Neon Genesis Evangelion, followed closely by the character from Cheers/Frasier. My association with the name in True Blood is that it was a poor attempt to create historical significance in what would otherwise be just another sexy all-powerful female antagonist. Yawn. It’s like Dracula 2000 says that Dracula is Judas, or Vampire:the Masquerade says the mark of Cain made him a vampire. Been there, done that, True Blood. Now go hire some writers. And that’s the real problem with using the name Lilith anywhere. It’s the literary equivalent of name-dropping. Unless you’re going to do something really interesting with her, you might want to avoid the name altogether. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/48 "2013-10-09T18:22:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My first association with the name is Bebe Neuwirth, quite frankly. A bit off-topic, but I just realized that Bebe was the name of Frasier’s agent in Seattle too. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/49 "2013-10-09T18:36:34Z")
After Cheers/Frasier, the only other thing I can think of is the Genesis song “Lilywhite Lilith” from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/50 "2013-10-09T19:55:15Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > [This](http://www.flickr.com/photos/45215582@N06/4153786070/lightbox/) is my Lilith, named after the wife of Adam, although I think my husband went along with it for Frasier-related reasons. I definitely think you should use **Dung Beetle’s** Lilith in your story. From the thread title I thought you were referring to the Biblical Lilith, although in general conversation I would probably think first of Bebe Neuwirth’s character. The only thing I know about _True Blood_ is that it’s about vampires. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/51 "2013-10-09T20:05:16Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > For what it’s worth, I think of the biblical Lilith first. Not all of us are True Blood fans. > > I think Lilith being a major character in a book would be awesome. Just be sure that she thinks like a Hebrew woman would 6,000 years ago. Oy vey! I say don’t do it. Too overused and burdened with lots of preconceptions, not just _True Blood_. Unless you want that! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/52 "2013-10-09T20:08:40Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Your friend thinks True Blood is more important than it is. > > In order, your thread title made me think: > > First wife of Adam > > Villain of the Nightside series > > Lilith Fair. true, I didn’t even think of the show, I thought of: A female demon of the night who supposedly flies around searching for newborn children either to kidnap or strangle them. Also, she sleeps with men to seduce them into propagating demon sons. > **[Encyclopedia Mythica](https://pantheon.org)** > > Encyclopedia Mythica is the premier encyclopedia on mythology, folklore, and religion. Instant mythology since 1995. Prior “wife” of Adam Frasiers wife True blood the fair. But that first is the sticky one, methinks. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/53 "2013-10-09T20:12:36Z")
Apparently she was first used as a purely literary character in Goethe’s _Faust_. From Martin Greenburg’s 1992 translation: Faust: Who’s that there? Mephisto: Take a good look. Lilith. Faust: Lilith? Who is that? Mephisto: Adam’s wife, his first. Beware of her. Her beauty’s one boast is her dangerous hair. Then Lilith winds it tight around young men She doesn’t soon let go of them again. (4206–4211) Faust: A lovely dream I dreamt one day I saw a green-leaved apple tree, Two apples swayed upon a stem, So tempting! I climbed up for them. The Pretty Witch: Ever since the days of Eden Apples have been man’s desire. How overjoyed I am to think, sir, Apples grow, too, in my garden. (4216 – 4223) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/54 "2013-10-09T20:29:18Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Just write the story. If it’s good it’ll work, if not it won’t. Won’t know until you do it. True enough. If an editor says, “I’ll buy it,” it’s good enough! > [@Yllaria](#): > > . . . [Lilith bowls](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incantation_bowl). I ran across those in college while researching something else. Cool! Never heard of these before! > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Forget about “Lilith.” Too much baggage and too many associations. > > Why don’t you be totally inventive and invent/create a sister of Lilith. . . . Definitely a possibility… > [@Marley23](#): > > . . . If you have a new twist or a new character that would be different. Well, I’m working on one. I definitely want the character to be “my” character, even if she pre-exists. In very rough terms, sort of the way “Oh My Goddess” re-purposed Verthrandi. (I could die happy if I created a character as cool as Belldandy.) > [@dracoi](#): > > . . . It’s like Dracula 2000 says that Dracula is Judas . . . That’s entirely new to me. As a “grand concept” it seems like a good one. > [@](#): > > And that’s the real problem with using the name Lilith anywhere. It’s the literary equivalent of name-dropping. Unless you’re going to do something really interesting with her, you might want to avoid the name altogether. Yeah, definitely a problem. It’s a big part of why I asked the question and opened the thread. A lot of very good advice here from everyone and all. Thank you. I’ll go and mull on it for a good long time. Sleep on it. (The unconscious has a powerful role in decision-making; one morning, I’ll wake up and know!) Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/55 "2013-10-09T21:15:06Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Forget about “Lilith.” Too much baggage and too many associations. > > Why don’t you be totally inventive and invent/create a sister of Lilith. A hair or a tear of Lilith’s fell to the ground and during that hyper-fertile time of Creation\*, it somehow grew into a woman who was unknown until she popped up in your story? You can name her anything you want. If you’re going in that direction, there is also a lesser-known “second wife” of Adam, under some mythologies, who was unnamed. Between Lilith and Eve, God made Adam another companion, but in full view of Adam, blood, guts, skin, and all. Adam was so squicked out that didn’t even name her and rejected her. There is no account of what was supposed to have happened to her. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/56 "2013-10-10T00:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > If you’re going in that direction, there is also a lesser-known “second wife” of Adam, under some mythologies, who was unnamed. Between Lilith and Eve, God made Adam another companion, but in full view of Adam, blood, guts, skin, and all. Adam was so squicked out that didn’t even name her and rejected her. There is no account of what was supposed to have happened to her. If she ended up looking like [Mila Jovovich](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL6SmtQ3JOo), I don’t think I’d mind. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/57 "2013-10-10T00:50:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > If you’re going in that direction, there is also a lesser-known “second wife” of Adam, under some mythologies, who was unnamed. Between Lilith and Eve, God made Adam another companion, but in full view of Adam, blood, guts, skin, and all. Adam was so squicked out that didn’t even name her and rejected her. There is no account of what was supposed to have happened to her. Neil Gaiman has a character mention this in Sandman – promptly hinting that, since Adam found Lilith unacceptable, she was presented to him a second time with the _behold-a-new-woman-is-being-created-right-before-your-eyes_ routine; when that squicked him out, cue the _here’s-someone-made-from-you-while-you-were-sleeping_ story and, oh, let’s go with the name “Eve” on this here third try, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/58 "2013-10-10T04:44:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Neil Gaiman has a character mention this in Sandman – promptly hinting that, since Adam found Lilith unacceptable, she was presented to him a second time with the _behold-a-new-woman-is-being-created-right-before-your-eyes_ routine; when that squicked him out, cue the _here’s-someone-made-from-you-while-you-were-sleeping_ story and, oh, let’s go with the name “Eve” on this here third try, I guess. I’ll have to check that out. I’ve always been fascinated by this “Adam and his other mates” stories, and the middle “Eve” or whatever you want to call her is the one that fascinated me the most. So, he rejects the first because she wants to fuck on top, the second because he sees her for who she is physically, guts and all, and the third is just right because she’s submissive and pretty. There’s just a lot of material to work with there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/59 "2013-10-10T13:49:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, I’m working on one. I definitely want the character to be “my” character, even if she pre-exists. In very rough terms, sort of the way “Oh My Goddess” re-purposed Verthrandi. (I could die happy if I created a character as cool as Belldandy.) I’m not familiar. I’m sure you want it to be your own character, but I’m saying that it might be better to go in another direction if you find your ideas are too close to the way other people are using Lilliths. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751/60 "2013-10-10T20:55:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not familiar. I’m sure you want it to be your own character, but I’m saying that it might be better to go in another direction if you find your ideas are too close to the way other people are using Lilliths. Yes, definitely; I was unclear, but that is exactly my intent. I’m hoping to blaze at least something of a new trail through the wilderness, while still using a familiar name as a short-cut to character introduction. It’s lazy, I confess. Yet such short-cuts are an historical part of character creation. Characters’ names are chosen, in very many cases, to give a jump-start to reader perception. Would the “Dirk Pitt” novels be as gripping if the character’s name was Warthen Baddelley? The serious answer is, yes, they probably would, but there would be an initial few pages where the reader had to get used to it. This was one of the big reasons behind the great “furry” explosion in comic books in the 1980’s. If a character is a “wolf” anthropomorph, that automatically implies a bunch of things about his character, allowing the writer to capitalize on the readers’ assumptions. Again, I confess without hesitation that this is lazy. But it is done, and has been done by some of the best of the best. (“Harry Blackstone Dresden.” Brilliant naming!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-should-i-use-lilith-in-a-story-book/670751.md?page=4)