# Can I sue the township, city, county or state for road damage to my car? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 25, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174 "2014-02-25T00:11:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/1 "2014-02-25T00:11:17Z")
I live in Pennsylvania. For my entire lifetime, i have heard the BS coming from PennDOT about PA’s unique freeze/thaw cycles, and why that’s the reason for our state’s horrendous road conditions. It never ceases to amaze me on how nice the road is as soon as you cross the boarder into Maryland, New Jersey, Ohio, Delaware, West Virgina, and even New York. A blind person can tell when the car has moved across state lines, as the car suddenly stops bouncing, the driver stops playing slalom with potholes, the kidney-busting potholes disappear, the road becomes smooth and the road noise disappears. No, it isn’t PA’s unique freeze-thaw cycle. It is the mixture of popcorn and mollasses that road crews use to pave roads and fill potholes with. It looks good for a year or two, but inevitably, it begins to erode. This latest winter has turned roads into a cratered mess. One road in particular was resurfaced two summers ago… I remember because it took them the entire summer to do the road. We are talking less than a mile, but when the road was finished, it was black and smooth. They always are. Less than 18 months later, the road looks like it has beed straifed by a B-1 bomber. Now, as i approach a hole, i can do one of three things. A) Stop completely, and hope that the car behind me doesn’t smash into my car. B) swearve around it, hoping that I do not hit a car to my left or my right, including the possibility of connecting with someone head on as they swerve to miss their own pothole and we meet in the middle. Or C) hit the damn thing, causing various damage to my front end, including alignment issues, bent wheels, blown tires, and broken tie-rods (to name a few). As far as I have been able to find out, a company that is subcontracted by the state to do road work is not required to come back and re-pave the road properly if the road deteriorates (at their expense). So, the crews have a permanent make-work contract with the state, to work on the same roads over and over again within a set radius. It’s a great deal if you own one of these companies, and it is also great if you have a job with one of them, however, for the motorists, it sucks. It has long been rumored that the state roads are a disaster in large part because of the kickbacks and payoffs received by certain officials that keep everyone in business. And the state has sold the nonsense of freeze/thaw cycles and unique topography so often and so well, that most people just take it for granted. But this is bullshit. If you build a road properly, it will stay together for many years. I spent time in Bavaria, in Southern Germany, and the roads there were perfect. From the autobahn to the regular roads, nary a pothole was in sight, and their winters were not only as harsh or harsher than the PA winters, but their mountains were much bigger. So the question is, can a driver who has sustained damage to his car on a road that was paved less than 18 months ago sue the owner of the road and/or the company that did the work? And if not, Why not? Certainly, a company is required to guarantee the quality of their work, correct? So if your business is building bridges and one collapses, you are footing the bill for all the resultant damage. Why aren’t road pavement companies held to the same standard? Or are they? ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/2 "2014-02-25T01:18:20Z")
reported for forum change. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/3 "2014-02-25T01:30:18Z")
**Moderator Action** Since this basically falls under legal advice, let’s move it over to IMHO. Moving thread from General Questions to In My Humble Opinion. (and as a fellow PA resident, I can sympathize) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/4 "2014-02-25T01:34:28Z")
I did a google search for “suing the state for bad roads”, and coincidentally (or perhaps not) the first link that popped up was about Pennsylvania. 😛 > [@](#): > > Say you’ve been injured in a car accident caused by a pothole, or maybe your car was damaged because of one. Who’s responsible? Beware – Pennsylvania has very specific laws about your rights as a victim of an accident caused by bad roads. > > If your accident happened on a road owned by Pennsylvania (like the PA Turnpike or a state route): > > ``` > You can't sue the state for property damage. > You can receive money for your injuries IF you can prove that PennDot had notice of the pothole or other bad road condition and a reasonable time to fix it. > > ``` > > If the accident occurred on a road maintained by a local government in Pennsylvania: > > ``` > You can sue for property damage to your vehicle, but you usually collect little more than your insurance deductible. > You can sue local governments for serious injuries caused by potholes. You must prove that the local government knew, or should have known, about the pothole and had time to fix it. > > ``` > > Note—Time limits apply: you must file a claim in writing against the state or a local government in PA within six months of the date of the crash. Note that this is a law firm’s web site. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/5 "2014-02-25T02:58:35Z")
Yes, you can most certainly sue. This is America; you can sue anyone for anything. I wouldn’t count on winning, though. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/6 "2014-02-25T03:47:54Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek's quote](#): > > You must prove that the local government knew, or should have known, about the pothole and had time to fix it. This is roughly what I’ve heard for years in Michigan. You can sue, but you’d have to prove they knew about the pothole thirty days before your damage. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/7 "2014-02-25T05:09:09Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > reported for forum change. Snitch! 😃 > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I did a google search for “suing the state for bad roads”, and coincidentally (or perhaps not) the first link that popped up was about Pennsylvania. 😛 > > Note that this is a law firm’s web site. This was an interesting read. Thanks for pasting it. > [@ZenBeam](#): > > This is roughly what I’ve heard for years in Michigan. You can sue, but you’d have to prove they knew about the pothole thirty days before your damage. How on earth would you prove the 30 day thing? Pictures with dates on them? Or would you have to get witnesses to come forward that would be willing to testify for you? That sounds like a very difficult mountain to climb. I’m not exactly surprised, but it would have been nice to learn it was a bit easier than all that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/8 "2014-02-25T07:04:35Z")
So it’s not my imagination that PA’s roads are the worst in the country. I was starting to feel paranoid as if only MY destinations consisted of apocalyptic road conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/9 "2014-02-25T13:18:56Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > How on earth would you prove the 30 day thing? You report it and keep records. There are websites out there that collect pothole reports just to keep the state/town on their toes fixing potholes. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/10 "2014-02-25T14:16:46Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I live in Pennsylvania. > > For my entire lifetime, i have heard the BS coming from PennDOT about PA’s unique freeze/thaw cycles, and why that’s the reason for our state’s horrendous road conditions. > > It never ceases to amaze me on how nice the road is as soon as you cross the boarder into Maryland, New Jersey, Ohio, Delaware, West Virgina, and even New York. A blind person can tell when the car has moved across state lines, as the car suddenly stops bouncing, the driver stops playing slalom with potholes, the kidney-busting potholes disappear, the road becomes smooth and the road noise disappears. > > No, it isn’t PA’s unique freeze-thaw cycle. You’re right, but it has to do with the unique [color](http://www.infoplease.com/states/) of PA; the other neighboring states are not blue & have better roads. Cold is usually displayed as blue; since PA is starting out as blue it gets colder quicker here than in the purple, green, or orange states which need to change color before they can get really cold. :rolleyes: PennDOT has a pothole repair hotline; I called them about a car-swallower, they came out & fixed it but \*just 3 weeks later \*it’s almost as big again. Good work guys! ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/11 "2014-02-25T14:30:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So it’s not my imagination that PA’s roads are the worst in the country. I was starting to feel paranoid as if only MY destinations consisted of apocalyptic road conditions. I always felt that driving in Michigan was comparable to driving in Beirut, only Beirut was slightly safer. Seriously, a while ago I used to drive from Michigan to central PA and Michigan definitely seemed worse (except for those weird dips on 80). I think weather and truck loads are the main contributing factors here (I’ve heard Michigan has the highest gross weight limit for trucks). ---
**Author:** ![fstbk1968](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@fstbk1968](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fstbk1968)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/12 "2014-02-25T14:58:44Z")
There’s an awful lot of incorrect assertions/assumptions here: > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I live in Pennsylvania. > > For my entire lifetime, i have heard the BS coming from PennDOT about PA’s unique freeze/thaw cycles, and why that’s the reason for our state’s horrendous road conditions. > > It’s not BS; freeze thaw cycles (especially combined with heavy truck traffic) can destroy a road in short order. Climates where the pavement can experience freeze/thaw cycles multiple times a day can cause it to deteriorate rapidly. > > It never ceases to amaze me on how nice the road is as soon as you cross the boarder into Maryland, New Jersey, Ohio, Delaware, West Virgina, and even New York. A blind person can tell when the car has moved across state lines, as the car suddenly stops bouncing, the driver stops playing slalom with potholes, the kidney-busting potholes disappear, the road becomes smooth and the road noise disappears. > > No, it isn’t PA’s unique freeze-thaw cycle. It is the mixture of popcorn and mollasses that road crews use to pave roads and fill potholes with. It looks good for a year or two, but inevitably, it begins to erode. > > I suspect it’s not the materials used, they are heavily regulated and tested. I guarantee you that your neighboring states use the same paving materials. The difference is $ spent on the roads. Pothole patching, BTW, is never intended to be permanent, it’s a temporary fix. > > This latest winter has turned roads into a cratered mess. One road in particular was resurfaced two summers ago… I remember because it took them the entire summer to do the road. We are talking less than a mile, but when the road was finished, it was black and smooth. They always are. > > Less than 18 months later, the road looks like it has beed straifed by a B-1 bomber. > > You touched on the key there, you said the road was resurfaced. Resurfacing is **not** intended to be the same as reconstruction. Resurfacing is a short term, low cost, stop-gap repair. Your state got exactly what it paid for. The underlying base is probably in deteriorating condition but the state can’t afford to reconstruct the road properly so they try to buy time by resurfacing. The contractor provided exactly what he was asked to. > > Now, as i approach a hole, i can do one of three things. A) Stop completely, and hope that the car behind me doesn’t smash into my car. B) swearve around it, hoping that I do not hit a car to my left or my right, including the possibility of connecting with someone head on as they swerve to miss their own pothole and we meet in the middle. Or C) hit the damn thing, causing various damage to my front end, including alignment issues, bent wheels, blown tires, and broken tie-rods (to name a few). > > As far as I have been able to find out, a company that is subcontracted by the state to do road work is not required to come back and re-pave the road properly if the road deteriorates (at their expense). So, the crews have a permanent make-work contract with the state, to work on the same roads over and over again within a set radius. It’s a great deal if you own one of these companies, and it is also great if you have a job with one of them, however, for the motorists, it sucks. > > See above, the contractor did not pave improperly. The state is taking short cuts and you’re seeing the result. > > It has long been rumored that the state roads are a disaster in large part because of the kickbacks and payoffs received by certain officials that keep everyone in business. And the state has sold the nonsense of freeze/thaw cycles and unique topography so often and so well, that most people just take it for granted. > > But this is bullshit. If you build a road properly, it will stay together for many years. I spent time in Bavaria, in Southern Germany, and the roads there were perfect. From the autobahn to the regular roads, nary a pothole was in sight, and their winters were not only as harsh or harsher than the PA winters, but their mountains were much bigger. > > Correct; if you build a road properly it will last virtually forever. The problem is nobody wants to pay for it. This country’s infrastructure is in poor condition and it’s getting worse. Expect to see more roads falling apart (along with bridges and sewer systems). Nobody wants to pay to properly maintain them so they deteriorate and will require rebuilding (which again, nobody wants to pay for). The result is Band-Aid fixes that don’t last. > > So the question is, can a driver who has sustained damage to his car on a road that was paved less than 18 months ago sue the owner of the road and/or the company that did the work? And if not, Why not? > > Certainly, a company is required to guarantee the quality of their work, correct? So if your business is building bridges and one collapses, you are footing the bill for all the resultant damage. Why aren’t road pavement companies held to the same standard? > > Resurfacing is typically only warrantied for one year, for the reasons I listed above. You get what you pay for. > > Or are they? I am not un-sympathetic to your situation, you’re simply mis-placing the blame. I am civil engineer who works in the Chicago area and I manage road and bridge projects for city & state DOTs. We are having the same issues here and our roads are crumbling apart due to the severity of this winter. It’s going to be a very busy and costly spring. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/13 "2014-02-25T15:30:36Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > This is roughly what I’ve heard for years in Michigan. You can sue, but you’d have to prove they knew about the pothole thirty days before your damage. Years ago, a [group of attorneys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Apple_Pothole_and_Sidewalk_Protection_Committee) systematically mapped or photographed potholes and defects in the sidewalks all over New York City to meet the requirement that the city had to have been notified of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![GrizzRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ba0ec/32.png) [@GrizzRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrizzRich)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/14 "2014-02-25T16:07:26Z")
I successfully sued for damage done to my truck, through my own insurance company, the State of Ohio for a pothole on I80 in Cleveland. They had erected a sign that said “Rough Road Ahead” (or similar language), but hadn’t made the repairs. So I think that was the crux of the claim. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/15 "2014-02-25T16:58:46Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > How on earth would you prove the 30 day thing? NYC has a service that goes around documenting and notifying the city of all the cracks, potholes and crosswalk defects in the city. Lawyers use their service to prove the city was notified. If notification is a requirement in PA also, I can’t imagine there isn’t a company somewhere in the state meeting that need. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/16 "2014-02-25T17:10:13Z")
It’s the politicians and bureaucrats fault. Most governments are set up to run on annual budgets, even for capital expenditures. They don’t think about the overall lifetime costs of a highway. They think about the annual budget. So if the road construction for a best in class road costs $50MM, but “Fly-by-Night” road construction company might be willing to charge $25MM to build the same road for significantly less quality construction techniques and materials, the government will normally pick the lowest bid, even if the annual maintenance costs in the future will be more…because that’s the problem of the politicians that win the next term. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/17 "2014-02-25T17:18:44Z")
> [@](#): > > For my entire lifetime, i have heard the BS coming from PennDOT about PA’s unique freeze/thaw cycles, and why that’s the reason for our state’s horrendous road conditions. > > It’s not BS; freeze thaw cycles (especially combined with heavy truck traffic) can destroy a road in short order. Climates where the pavement can experience freeze/thaw cycles multiple times a day can cause it to deteriorate rapidly. I think the OP was saying PA being “unique” was BS. Not that the freeze/thaw cycle wasn’t the problem. The problem with the OP’s lawsuit idea is that the road condition described appears to be the result of a policy decision to spend less than necessary to maintain the highways. (see, Discretionary Immunity) Thus, as others point out, if you have a particularly dangerous condition in the road that the State had notice of, you might be successful. Generally crappy condition of the roads is probably something you don’t have a legal remedy for. That’s where you’re supposed to seek a political remedy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Duke\_Of\_Prunes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Duke\_Of\_Prunes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Duke_Of_Prunes)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/18 "2014-02-25T17:25:38Z")
I can hearby testify that the roads in Wisconsin are a battle zone after the winter we’ve had. Wisconsin has two seasons. 1. Winter 2. Road Construction It’s an endless cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/19 "2014-02-27T20:04:59Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I live in Pennsylvania. > > For my entire lifetime, i have heard the BS coming from PennDOT about PA’s unique freeze/thaw cycles, and why that’s the reason for our state’s horrendous road conditions. > > It never ceases to amaze me on how nice the road is as soon as you cross the boarder into Maryland, New Jersey, **Ohio** , Surely you jest. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174/20 "2014-02-27T20:13:05Z")
In Chicago, if a pothole damages your car you can send the bill to the city and they’ll pay it. Not sure of the hoops you have to jump through but I’ve heard that it’s not difficult. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-i-sue-the-township-city-county-or-state-for-road-damage-to-my-car/682174.md?page=2)