# Can Iraqi hearts and minds still be won? Pentagon's own report says no. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554 "2004-12-07T15:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/81 "2004-12-10T18:11:40Z")
I think **Al. D** makes a good point (if this _is_ his point…). Why should we expect “moderate” Muslims to carry the ball for us? Especially as we seem hell-bent on making their case impossible. I know we aren’t at war with Islam, that would be as silly as being at war with Buddhism. But truth be known, some of our countrymen believe it, the same countrymen who believe that Jesus is passing out the ammunition. A blasphemy to shock an agnostic. As well, why should a moderate Muslim have any more responsibility than a moderate atheist, or a moderate Christian? That would be, in effect, identifying with their Muslim faith more than they identify with our shared humanity, which is precisely, exactly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/82 "2004-12-10T18:23:45Z")
> [@](#): > > **Aldebaran** > > I can only say: It is always nice for people to have a dream My dream is for you to answer my question. So do it. You’re quick to dish it out, lets hear some good alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/83 "2004-12-10T18:38:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But truth be known, some of our countrymen believe it, the same countrymen who believe that Jesus is passing out the ammunition. A blasphemy to shock an agnostic. Did you see Falwell on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer a couple weeks back? > [@Jerry Falwell](#): > > If it takes 10 years, let’s blow them all away in the name of the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/84 "2004-12-10T18:47:24Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Did you see Falwell on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer a couple weeks back? Yes because the military actually regards this as gospel :eek: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/85 "2004-12-10T18:49:14Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Did you see Falwell on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer a couple weeks back? No. No, I didn’t. Thanks, I feel so much…better informed. No, really, thanks a bunch. Nurse?..Nurse?.. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/86 "2004-12-10T19:02:37Z")
Did I say anything about the military? But it’s interesting to note that the Commander in Chief Bush and his family are friends with Falwell. So close, in fact, that Falwell was invited to [George the Elder’s 80th Birthday Bash](http://www.nljonline.com/aug04/life_begins.html). Birds of a Feather, you know. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/87 "2004-12-10T19:11:58Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Did I say anything about the military? But it’s interesting to note that the Commander in Chief Bush and his family are friends with Falwell. So close, in fact, that Falwell was invited to [George the Elder’s 80th Birthday Bash](http://www.nljonline.com/aug04/life_begins.html). Birds of a Feather, you know. That would be the intimate gathering of close personal freinds that they held in a baseball stadium? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/88 "2004-12-10T19:13:43Z")
BTW, think Falwell and Bush aren’t connected? [Who’s that third from the left?](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/images/20031105-1_p35410-21-515h.html) No this ain’t one of those “we met because we shook hands in a reception line” type relationships. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/89 "2004-12-10T19:20:14Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > BTW, think Falwell and Bush aren’t connected? [Who’s that third from the left?](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/images/20031105-1_p35410-21-515h.html) No this ain’t one of those “we met because we shook hands in a reception line” type relationships. And who opened the Republican National Convention this year? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/90 "2004-12-10T19:52:04Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > BTW, think Falwell and Bush aren’t connected? [Who’s that third from the left?](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/images/20031105-1_p35410-21-515h.html) Um, that looks like Hastert to me. **aldebaran** ’s position would seem to be a firm No. Unless I completely misunderstand. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/91 "2004-12-10T20:11:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I know we aren’t at war with Islam, that would be as silly as being at war with Buddhism. But truth be known, some of our countrymen believe it, the same countrymen who believe that Jesus is passing out the ammunition. We can say all we want about how we’re not at war with Islam, but you don’t have to be of any religious bent to realize that actions speak louder than words. And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to recognize that our balance of Islamic goodwill efforts is severely lacking these days. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/92 "2004-12-10T20:12:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Um, that looks like Hastert to me. Could be. But it doesn’t negate the connection between Bush and Falwell. Do you know which college Karl Rove gave his first [commencement speech](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A11143-2004May8¬Found=true)? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/93 "2004-12-10T20:37:20Z")
No, I didn’t know that. Boy, its great to be well-informed. Falwell, he’s the smarmy pudge-bucket with the undertaker’s smile, right? Yeah, sure is great to be well-informed. Yep, this is definitely a handbasket. No question about destination. Up to date in all regards. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/94 "2004-12-13T11:14:32Z")
OK, I am going to try one last time. I feel this has become a lost cause, but also feel that I should try to do something… > [@Aldebaran](#): > > And? Does that mean that I need to invent something positive when there is none just to please you? Not to please me, but because it is the point of the OP. If you feel that Iraqi (not Arab, not Muslim, not EU citizen) hearts and minds cannot be won, then say so. Or if you think they can be won, but not by the US, then say so. Just don’t trot out the same thing we have all heard so many times before, no less than three times in this very thread, about how bad America and Americans are. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Wrong and strange out of context/besides the point comment you give there. > Read my posts in this thread instead of thinking about what they are not. > My posts in this thread give my observations of: > > 1. The common = non-political, non-intellectual, non-business circles = general Arab interpretations and reactions. > 2. The common = non-political, non-intellectual, non-business circles = general EU citizens interpretations and reactions. I point out that they are more moderate because of the absence of influence by what adds to the Arab reaction (being Muslim, being Arab = background, reasoning and culture of the ME). > 3. A few remarks on how the reaction is in intellectual/business circles in the Arab world, pointing out a significant shift towards mistrust of and staggering difficulties with (and this at my personal level also) the USA under this administration. > 4. A few notes about the reactions at government/diplomatic level both in the Arab and the EU and on an even more international level: NAVO/UN circles. Yes, thanks, did that. Considering I, too, live in an EU country, sharing accomodation with others from both non-EU and EU countries, I think you are wrong, but oh well. Care to present a cite? Or is your post your cite? > [@Aldebaran](#): > > I couldn’t be less passionate. I describe the truth of the situation as I observe it internationally. > It would be beneficial for the US if the US citizens would make the effort to become interested to get insight and understanding of the rest of the world. That could _even_ have led to a more balanced view on the man they re-elected while being wilfully blind. I appreciate the passion. What I don’t appreciate is being lumped in with a bunch of bible thumping morons in my own country, especially as I don’t even live there but in fact live in the EU myself! Do you like being compared to the Taliban much? Because it’s the same thing you’re doing to me. Oh, and I didn’t vote for Bush. Neither did 49% of my countrymen. So get a grip, would you please? The 49% of us who didn’t vote for him KNOW how bad he is! > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Why don’t you come with a proposition? Thanks, I have. In fact I came up with two - more Muslim leadership in the peacekeeping military and increased UN presense along with more NGO aid to Iraq. What I am waiting for is yours. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > So you imagine I hide them in my basements, finance their training and ammunition and all my connections do the same, or what is this insinuating? > There was already a member on this board spreading the good news that I am a recruiter of terrorists. More specific: I am only for that reason on the SDMB.( Really on itself already a shining example of intelligent observation, seen the overwhelming presence of Muslims around here.) > One is already enough, thank you. Did I accuse YOU of anything? No. Yet you automatically jump to defence. I merely posted an opinion, that if the Islamic ‘street’ as you call them, would stand together and condemn the terrorist kidnappings and assasinations, the daylight knife murder of Theo Van Gogh, etc etc etc then it might make a difference and have a few less Christians cannoning up for religious war… My point is that you don’t see the same sort of vocal and unanimous condemnation of the actions of extremists within Islam as you do within Christianity. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Why? Because they are Muslims? > You want Muslims to get blown themselves in the air in order to have the US soldiers flying home = the Muslims can get themselves killed to secure the US economical/geo-strategic interests in Islamic nations the US invaded and messed up? Did I say any of that? I would thank you not to put words in my mouth, please. My point is that if a peacekeeping force led by Muslims was to take over in Iraq, then it might make a huge difference in the perception of the normal everyday folks in Iraq that this is in fact not a imperialistic spasm of invasion by the US. Of course, since you happen to expouse the view that this is the first step in the US invading and conquering the rest of the oil-rich Muslim world, I don’t expect you to agree, but c’est la vie… > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Actually, the rest of the international community is far more involved in Afghanistan then the USA, after the US bombed a devastated nation back to the stone age. > At least the US had in that case a mandate from the UN. I did not agree with the use of military violence at all. That did not stop me to do what I was in a position to do at the time. Yet it eally comes as no surprise that the general mindset in the USA prefers to cultivate and entertain the idea that the US needed nobody but the US to get the US bombers over Afghanistan. Yes, it is, and rightly so. I have advocated for larger UN presence in Iraq for months, especially from Muslim nations. This is what I mean by ‘skin in the game’ - if they really, truly want peace and an end of the Islamic terrorism, they should put their money where their mouth is and cough up some troops to help out! Unlike you, I do agree with the judicious use of military force. And in case you were wondering, I was for action in Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and as many Al-Queda members as possible. I think we were completely justified in doing what we did there, and incase you’re wondering, we didn’t need a hell of a lot of support from anyone else to get the bombers over Afghanistan and the Special Forces A-teams in place along the borders. As for the proper work of nationbuilding, we know we needed help, we asked for it, and we got it. And now we’re helping to pay for it, too. Hell of a way for an ‘Empire’ to treat a conquered territory - leave it as soon as possible, eh? Kinda blows your argument about ownership out of the water, too, though… > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Still busy in Afghanistan, the US choosed to invade Iraq against the will of the UN. > The US said repeatedly it would only listen to its own voice. > The UN was not only declared superficial and “outdated”. Nothing new, nothing interesting, and nothing that warrants a response. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > The UN had for the US no role to play at all. Not before, not during not after the invasion. No surprise that the US can clean it up now on its own, is it? > If they succeed they have nothing done to ask credit or reward for. You break it, you pay it. That does not change that the owner still owns it. Prove it - why then are we asking for huge support from the UN now? I kinda doubt we want to Own Iraq, even it’s oil, as the US actually has quite a bit of that ourselves… > [@Aldebaran](#): > > The problem with the US is that they are always most ready to break it, that they next expect others to pay for it and clean it up and that in the end they still want to act as if they are the owners, including ownership of the owners themselves. > And then you ask someone who is at the owner’s end to come up with “something positive”? I think this is really rich, especially coming from anyone living anywhere close to the EU. The US broke a lot of shit in WWII in Europe, and paid for nearly all of it to get replaced - ever hear of a little thing called the Marshall Plan? Y’know, the one that rebuilt all of Germany, the Low Countries, and large parts of France after WWII? Guess who paid for that little marvel - that’s right, the US. The US pays more money to charitable causes per capita than any other nation on Earth, quite a few of them international. We have more volunteers in organizations such as Medicines sans Frontieres than any other nation on earth except for France. Who was the first one in in Iran when they had massive earthquakes that killed thousands? Or duing typhoons in Bangladesh? Or earthquakes in Central America? After local resources, that would be US resources, both government and non-governmental, running to the rescue of people they have never even met. This is quite simply a ridiculous premise. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > Do you really believe the US shall ever give up its military bases in this region, including the ones that are now planted in Iraq (and I don’t even want to think about their locations), as long as the US has economical and hence strategic interests there? We have had strategic (and yes, economic) interests in the Gulf for more than a hundred years, yet only since 1991 have we had bases there - care to gues why? So yeah, I think as long as we run a risk of being attacked from the people who live in that region, then yeah, I kinda think we will be keeping a military presense there. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > But you want “the Muslims” go risk their lives to secure the US capitalistic interests in yet an other Islamic nation that is ruled by a US puppet government. > That shall in your view put an end to the grievances among the Islamic populations in the region and hence stop them from flocking to the Lunatics who preach Jihad. > I can only say: It is always nice for people to have a dream. You jump to conclusions faster than anyone I have ever known. Show me where I said anything about Muslims dying to secure the capitalist aims of the US? face it - we got where we are without a hell of a lot of Muslim support, other than those Muslims who have moved to the US and gotten jobs and joined communities here. We are now the #1 economic powerhouse nation on Earth. When, exactly, did we need Muslims to die to support that? You have a pretty inflated view of the importance of the Muslim world, my friend. Salaam right back at cha, but I bet I mean it… ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/95 "2004-12-13T12:46:21Z")
Sorry to interupt the flow of the argument, but here’s why we can’t win Iraqi hearts and minds. [Bungling raids by US troops fuel Iraqi anger](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1398029,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/96 "2004-12-13T13:09:56Z")
> [@Stryfe](#): > > Sorry to interupt the flow of the argument, but here’s why we can’t win Iraqi hearts and minds. > [Bungling raids by US troops fuel Iraqi anger](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1398029,00.html) I’m starting to think the answer might be no, sadly. Of course, I don’t blame the troops, but blame the shoddy intel they are getting an the seemingly unpenetrable mindset linking 9-11 to Iraq when there is no link. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/97 "2004-12-13T13:57:02Z")
Nice part about the “don’t smoke in front of the kid” ! 🙂 Its the classic “dam if you do, dam if you don’t” issue about fighting insurgents. The question now is how long will the USA stick around… and how many lives are worth for holding on to national pride and politics. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/98 "2004-12-13T23:01:23Z")
More US GI misbehaving… [Killings sting Proud Battalion](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20041213/ts_latimes/killingsstingproudbattalion&e=4) These stories are the nastiest I’ve seen yet… betting on who kills a civilian first, etc… ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/99 "2004-12-13T23:46:14Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > More US GI misbehaving… [Killings sting Proud Battalion](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20041213/ts_latimes/killingsstingproudbattalion&e=4) > These stories are the nastiest I’ve seen yet… betting on who kills a civilian first, etc… 3 years in prison? For murder? This really sends a message about how little respect the USA has for the lives of Iraqi civilians! ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/100 "2004-12-14T00:05:10Z")
To be fair he got 3 years becuase he ‘put the kid out of his misery’. But man thats some fucked up shit in that article. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554.md?page=6)