# Can Iraqi hearts and minds still be won? Pentagon's own report says no. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554 "2004-12-07T15:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/101 "2004-12-14T09:32:38Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > More US GI misbehaving… [Killings sting Proud Battalion](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20041213/ts_latimes/killingsstingproudbattalion&e=4) > These stories are the nastiest I’ve seen yet… betting on who kills a civilian first, etc… Just because they are in a combat zone is no reason for this kind of thing , these marines seem to be out of control. Unless (really scary thought) these things are actually sanctioned by the military and they only prosecute when caught out. That would explain the lenient sentencing. I hope I’m wrong! ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/102 "2004-12-14T10:57:18Z")
> [@Stryfe](#): > > Just because they are in a combat zone is no reason for this kind of thing , these marines seem to be out of control. > > Unless (really scary thought) these things are actually sanctioned by the military and they only prosecute when caught out. That would explain the lenient sentencing. > > I hope I’m wrong! Two things are failing here: 1, This is a leadership failure. No, I am not blaming Bush (for this specific failure), but if this many guys from one unit are all accused of war crimes, then both the platoon CO and the company CO should go to prison right alongside these guys. The Battalion CO should be fired and the Division CO should be forced into early retirement. This is a failure of leadership pure and simple 1. The one place where I do blame Bush is because in his first term, he and Rumsfeld decided to cancel all ‘nationbuilding’ training that the US military receives. Basically, he forgot - US Marines especially, and the US Army to a degree as well, is organically trained to kill and survive. They are not trained to be cops. ‘Nationbuilding’ training does exactly that - teaches soldiers how to respond in a less-than-lethal fashion when under duress. These guys are doing exactly what they are trained to do, only proble is that this is the wrong situation for that training and they aren’t getting the right training for this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/103 "2004-12-14T11:30:50Z")
Regarding the murders committed by US military and the killing of the Iraqi boy more specific, there was a thread made on BBQ about this. > **[Three Years of Murdering Brown Enemy of Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=291300)** > > WTF? Does military justice equal three years for murder? Was this guy even fighting in the battle? I know as far as the military is concerned he is any enemy of freedom because he is an Arab, but does this mean his life is not worth more than three... And where I asked the following > [@](#): > > A few months ago I had to give permission to give a lethal injection to a donkey - a pet of my children- to “put him out of his misery”. I didn’t do that because tehre was o treatment available, but because it was, according to the veterinary, far too late to start a treatment that possibly could have cured him. > > Are there known cases of US soldiers killing US soldiers “to put them out of their misery”, especially in an urban setting where likely a hospital was avaiblable to bring them for treatment? > Or do you have the impression that if it would have been a US soldier in this case, that everything possible would have been done to get him to a hospital (even when risking that he died on the way to it ) because finishing him of just like that “to put him out of his misery” would be seen as equal to put the worth of the life of a US soldier on the same level as an animal life. > [@](#): > > Forgot: Are there records of anybody asking the soldier during the trial what he would have done if the wounded boy would have been Made in the USA or a US soldier Made in the USA? His answer to that would be interesting. No reply came on that and the thread seems to be dead from there on. Maybe someone in this thread can give an opinion? And in addition, in line of the OP questions: Do you think the Iraqis are not asking themselves the same questions? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/104 "2004-12-14T11:54:19Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Forgot: Are there records of anybody asking the soldier during the trial what he would have done if the wounded boy would have been Made in the USA or a US soldier Made in the USA? His answer to that would be interesting. This would have no place in a courts martial or a court of law, so this question would have raised an objection and would have been struck from the record. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > ]Are there known cases of US soldiers killing US soldiers “to put them out of their misery”, especially in an urban setting where likely a hospital was avaiblable to bring them for treatment? > Or do you have the impression that if it would have been a US soldier in this case, that everything possible would have been done to get him to a hospital (even when risking that he died on the way to it ) because finishing him of just like that “to put him out of his misery” would be seen as equal to put the worth of the life of a US soldier on the same level as an animal life. Many many many times. It’s not something often talked about, and it is something that is frequently publicly covered up, but yes, it happens. As for the example you cited about being in an urban area in close proximity to medical care, then I kinda doubt it - unless the unit was pinned down or under fire, then I don’t think it would even be an option. Even then, most small combat teams (say anything more than 4 soldiers) deploys with a medic amongst them, so the medic would attempt to stabilize the wounded soldier and the capability of battlefield medics to stabilize wounds is pretty amazing (I was trained as one in the Air Force, so I know). I seriously doubt they would shoot their wounded in any but the most dire circumstances. I also seriously doubt, that in a standard unit of Marines or Army soldiers, with proper command and control, a wounded 16-yo boy would have been killed either - their officer or senior NCO would have put a stop to this happening. Friendly fire happens, but in a properly functioning unit, it does not get wildly out of control as these Marines did. This unit was in meltdown and should have been pulled off the line long before this incident happend, thus it is a failure in command and control. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/105 "2004-12-14T18:24:09Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > 3 years in prison? For murder? This really sends a message about how little respect the USA has for the lives of Iraqi civilians! Yep… 3 years is a joke. How many months did those Abu Ghraib rednecks get for sticking glow sticks in Iraqi asses ? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/106 "2004-12-14T21:00:49Z")
Most of the trials haven’t begun yet, but believe me, there’s almost no sympathy in America for those disgraces to their uniforms. Anyway, maybe we’re looking at this the wrong way. Maybe we should take care of as many people as possible instead of inconviencing everyone for the sake of a few what the Times Magazine called [Feral Cities](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12FERAL.html?oref=login). Brazil, for example, has written off several of the favelas, according to the article. Also in the same mag, an article on the [spreading of democracy.](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12WWLN.html) > [@](#): > > But while you may not like the providential aspect of democratic providentialism, it remains true that the promotion of democracy by the United States has proved to be a dependably good idea. America may be more unpopular than ever before, but its hegemony really has coincided with a democratic revolution around the world. For the first time in history, a majority of the world’s peoples live in democracies. In a dangerous time, this is about the best news around, since democracies, by and large, do not fight one another, and they do not break up into civil war. As a result – and contrary to the general view that the world is getting more violent – ethnic and civil strife have actually been declining since the early 1990’s, according to a study of violent conflicts by Ted Robert Gurr at the University of Maryland. Democratic transitions can be violent – when democracy came to Yugoslavia, majority rule at first led to ethnic cleansing and massacre – but once democracies settle in, once they develop independent courts and real checks and balances, they can begin to advance majority interests without sacrificing minority rights. You can’t drag people to polling booths, but show them the facts and all but the most violent and stupid will hopefully see how the future can be if they stop being so afraid of America, the world, and especially each other. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/107 "2004-12-15T02:52:18Z")
Mehabitel… naturally there is no sympathy from most americans… though many seem quite willing to defend these soldiers. The problem is having few trials and far between them as isolated examples. It seems pretty clear that soldiers are running a muck in Iraq… and only a few are getting their hands slapped. As for that “spreading of democracy” I think everyone agrees that having democracies is a better choice… the problem is how you get about it. Also when the biggest democratic country sets such a bad example, it doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/108 "2004-12-15T10:13:39Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Mehabitel… naturally there is no sympathy from most americans… though many seem quite willing to defend these soldiers. The problem is having few trials and far between them as isolated examples. It seems pretty clear that soldiers are running a muck in Iraq… and only a few are getting their hands slapped. Just to be clear - I am NOT defending the soldiers. I am saying that in addition to punishing the offenders, their officers should be punished as much if not more so for allowing this sort of insanity to go on… I also think it is a few isolated incidents, to be honest - this is what, three instances of abuse reported in 2 years? To be honest, if it was more instances that were part of some sinister cover up, there would be dozens and dozens of separate incidents and rumours of hundreds more. I think you’re giving the ‘conspirators’ too much credit - those running the military are not nearly as good at keeping secrets as some seem to think they are… and the military does have at it’s core a staff of good hearted and honorable soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/109 "2004-12-15T11:01:12Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > As for that “spreading of democracy” I think everyone agrees that having democracies is a better choice… the problem is how you get about it. Also when the biggest democratic country sets such a bad example, it doesn’t help. We are only six weeks away from the democratic elections in Iraq, I hope I can add a note of optimism to the thread. If Israel can hold elections in the face of continued suicide bombings and still remain a democracy then surely it is possible for elections to go ahead in Iraq. Maybe, if the elections proceed and a truly representative Iraqi government is installed then maybe we can begin to win the hearts and minds. Although IMHO we (the west) failed them in 1991 when we stood by an failed to support the uprising after GW1, so it’s no wonder they don’t trust us now. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/110 "2004-12-15T11:03:53Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > I also think it is a few isolated incidents, to be honest - this is what, three instances of abuse reported in 2 years? To be honest, if it was more instances that were part of some sinister cover up, there would be dozens and dozens of separate incidents and rumours of hundreds more. There doesn’t need to be a ‘sinister conspiracy’ covering up for there ‘only’ to be 3 incidents we know of. There could just be no witnesses, no camera’s or you could have self-sensoring reporters or officers that want to deal with it indoors. In fact I would think 3 **reported** cases indicative of a factor x un-reported cases. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/111 "2004-12-15T12:13:42Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > There doesn’t need to be a ‘sinister conspiracy’ covering up for there ‘only’ to be 3 incidents we know of. > There could just be no witnesses, no camera’s or you could have self-sensoring reporters or officers that want to deal with it indoors. > > In fact I would think 3 **reported** cases indicative of a factor x un-reported cases. Yes, but I see no evidence in the news sources I follow (many of them international and not pro-America) of additional incidents being reported. Do you have a cite for the dozens and dozens of incidents you imply? ---
**Author:** ![Hustle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@Hustle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hustle)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/112 "2004-12-15T21:06:08Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > The Iraqi people need massive psychological intervention and to change the paranoid, helpless worldview most of them have been raised with, and I think the election is the best we can do right now. When they see Allawi wave goodbye and walk out of office for his successor, that will do more to win hearts and minds than anything else–they have never, ever seen anybody leave power voluntarily, poor things. > [@GomiBoy](#): > > Do you think there’s a possibility that will happen? Allawi seems like Karzai - the only way an ‘interim’ Prime Minister / president makes sense to me is if they promise to step down when the real guy is selected. I think Allawi wants to keep power, to be honest… Campaigning has begun now and according to the BBC [Allawi is running](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4098639.stm). Having him voluntarily abstain would have had some symbolic value, but I’m guessing the American friendly parties think there’s a greater benefit to getting more votes due to name recognition. My magic 8-ball says: Given the large number of candidate parties, the result of the election will be similar to that which we see in Israel, a fragile ruling coalition of several dissimilar parties that risk collapse every couple of months over some single issue they can’t agree on. The Allawi side will win this election and he will remain Prime Minister, but I doubt very much it will in any way be a stable government. Meanwhile, the minority bloc MPs that dislike the American presence will through a democratically elected parliament be given a credible platform to voice their opinions, and every time another US army scandal comes to light they will be quick to exploit it. This strategy will work well for them. A succesful vote of no-confidence in the Allawi government followed by new elections will happen in about a year, and the general consensus in the west will be that elections were held too soon. [sub]My magic 8-ball has very fine print[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/113 "2004-12-16T01:21:25Z")
Dang. Well, it was true that he wasn’t running when I posted that. :smack: I think the guy’s OK but I hope he doesn’t win; he’ll be seen as American puppet no matter if he fixes the electrical grid personally. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/114 "2004-12-16T02:06:04Z")
How will the “Iraqi” elections be held ? 1 single vote… the biggest vote count wins ? Or will there be some sort of second turn… with a second voting for the two highest vote counts for example ? Or is it parliamentary style ? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/115 "2004-12-16T20:10:16Z")
Everything I’ve seen says it’s parliamentary-style. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554/116 "2004-12-17T14:30:19Z")
Report from the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6027-2004Dec16.html) by people with boots on the ground. Mixed but generally optimistic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-iraqi-hearts-and-minds-still-be-won-pentagons-own-report-says-no/278554.md?page=5)