# Can it sometimes be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975 "2005-01-10T02:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/61 "2005-01-10T22:57:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, it depends on the day. Monday was the day for injecting marijuana, and smoking LSD. Tuesday was spit on the returning troops day. Wednesday was anything can happen day, and so on. > > Tell you what you do, **Bricker**. You go and create a mass political movement and absolutely assure than no jerky assholes attach themselves to it. When you’ve done that, come back and lecture us on how it should be done, OK? As with jerky assholes and movements today, the question is how willing the other members of the movement are to condemn their jerky cousins. As I recall, most mainstream “movement” people did condemn the outright violence offered by SDS, and the Panthers, and the Weathermen. I would have liked to see them condemn the word “pigs” as well, which most of them used with relish, but I guess you can’t have everything. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/62 "2005-01-10T22:58:55Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > But really, I’m getting tired of the whole thing. I find that whenever I encounter the word “patriot,” the speaker is incorporating ideas that I disagree with, some that I find repulsive. … It’s become a word that is nothing more than a political weapon, a tool of demagogues. And the word has been such a tool for years. Evidence of that? Webster defined patriotism as the last resort of the scoundrel. Ambrose Bierce referred to Webster’s sarcasm in _The Devil’s Dictionary_, saying that it wasn’t the last resort of the scoundrel. It was the first. In many cases it is hard to distinguish patriotism from jingoism. Such as those who sport flags and slogans on bumper stickers. Many of them claim to be whole hog supporters of our troops, the war on terrism, Iraq and on and on. But for many, their support would evaporate if taxes were raised to pay for some of the expenses involved in those things instead of passing the expense along as debt on which only the interest, a few percent of the actual cost in any year, is paid. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_the_Plumber)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/63 "2005-01-10T22:59:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, it depends on the day. Monday was the day for injecting marijuana, and smoking LSD. _chuckle_ > [@](#): > > Tuesday was spit on the returning troops day. Wednesday was anything can happen day, and so on. I loved the wildcard days especially. Wake up in the morning and decide how to fight the Great Satan and all, right after taking my opium pills. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/64 "2005-01-10T23:05:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Its a basic tenet of democracy that we all agree to abide by the will of the majority. I strongly disagree here, as one of the most important thing a citizen of a democracy should be aware of is civil disobedience. In fact, I’d say that there are times when, if someone strongly enough disagrees with the course the democracy has chosen, it is that person’s DUTY to interfere with that course, presumably with nonviolent resistance. However, this is an option that should only be used when morality and ethics demand it, in order to right injustice, not just because you voted for the other guy. As to the main question of the thread, it’s an interesting one. Certainly, it seems trivially clear that someone who truly loves the USA wants what is best for the USA **in the long term** , which could potentially involve wishing for outcomes which many in the USA would view as defeats in the short term. For instance, if person A would view it as a defeat if the US were to pull out of Iraq right now, but person B thinks that we should pull out of Iraq right now, then, from person A’s perspective, person B is wishing for the US to be defeated. There’s a very big step, though, when it comes to actually wishing for the defeat of US soldiers on a relatively small scale, as that almost inevitably leads to wishing for the deaths of US soldiers. That is something that I would find very hard (although not necessarily impossible) to reconcile with true patriotism. To sum up, a patriot should, imho: -ALWAYS wish for what is best for the their country, in the long term (reading “their country” to mainly mean “their country’s people”) -OCCASIONALLY, HESITANTLY wish for things which seem like defeats or setbacks for their country in the short term -ALMOST ALMOST ALMOST ALMOST ALMOST NEVER wish for the their country to suffer military defeats, at least those that involve loss of life And, in general, a good person should wish for what is best for all people of the world, in the long term. If you find that this wish opposes the above, patriotic, wishes, that might be a sign that your country is in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/65 "2005-01-10T23:23:49Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I strongly disagree here, as one of the most important thing a citizen of a democracy should be aware of is civil disobedience. In fact, I’d say that there are times when, if someone strongly enough disagrees with the course the democracy has chosen, it is that person’s DUTY to interfere with that course, presumably with nonviolent resistance. However, this is an option that should only be used when morality and ethics demand it, in order to right injustice, not just because you voted for the other guy. > > As to the main question of the thread, it’s an interesting one. Certainly, it seems trivially clear that someone who truly loves the USA wants what is best for the USA **in the long term** , which could potentially involve wishing for outcomes which many in the USA would view as defeats in the short term. For instance, if person A would view it as a defeat if the US were to pull out of Iraq right now, but person B thinks that we should pull out of Iraq right now, then, from person A’s perspective, person B is wishing for the US to be defeated. > > There’s a very big step, though, when it comes to actually wishing for the defeat of US soldiers on a relatively small scale, as that almost inevitably leads to wishing for the deaths of US soldiers. That is something that I would find very hard (although not necessarily impossible) to reconcile with true patriotism. > To sum up, a patriot should, imho: > -ALWAYS wish for what is best for the their country, in the long term (reading “their country” to mainly mean “their country’s people”) > -OCCASIONALLY, HESITANTLY wish for things which seem like defeats or setbacks for their country in the short term > -ALMOST ALMOST ALMOST ALMOST ALMOST NEVER wish for the their country to suffer military defeats, at least those that involve loss of life > > And, in general, a good person should wish for what is best for all people of the world, in the long term. If you find that this wish opposes the above, patriotic, wishes, that might be a sign that your country is in the wrong. Excellent post **Max**. Now try to get elected on that platform. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/66 "2005-01-10T23:33:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Do you have a cite from either Coulter or Limbaugh stating that they wished the US to be defeated or even “deeply wounded and humbled.”? I’ve never heard even a peep that either of they expresses such sentiments. Now, they may have attacked Clinton…in fact, I’m quite sure they did during and after his presidency Yeah, and we all know how minor and irrelevant the position of President of the United States is. You’d have to be certifiably nuts to even think that a self-proclaimed patriot should care about the POTUS. :rolleyes: > [@xtisme](#): > > Its a basic tenet of democracy that we all agree to abide by the will of the majority. That is a sentiment often expressed by those in the majority. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/67 "2005-01-10T23:41:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So I’d like to ask the OP to honestly characterize his own feelings right now: does he, in fact, wish to see the United States suffer military defeat? At present, no. What I want is for the election to come off as scheduled, a new National Assembly to take power, and our troops to then bugger out as quickly as they can do so without leaving a civil war behind them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/68 "2005-01-10T23:44:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Treason is giving aid and comfort to an enemy. I don’t believe wishing death on the President, standing alone, is treason. A copy of this post has been forwarded to the Secret Service. Thank you for your cooperation! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/69 "2005-01-10T23:46:02Z")
And a pony? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/70 "2005-01-10T23:48:59Z")
I wouldn’t mind seeing BushCo. suffer some sort of crushing defeat. Thing is, when they fuck up, some poor bastard who volunteered on the GI bill or something gets his ass shot off. Hence, I’m quite conflicted. I don’t wish to see the Iraqi invasion validated, because I don’t regard it as a legitimate action, but invalidation means more of our soldiers get killed. Starting these wars can be a really effective way to keep political adversaries in a lose-lose situation. Bush may be a ass, but he’s not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/71 "2005-01-10T23:56:01Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I wouldn’t mind seeing BushCo. suffer some sort of crushing defeat. > > Thing is, when they fuck up, some poor bastard who volunteered on the GI bill or something gets his ass shot off. > > Hence, I’m quite conflicted. I don’t wish to see the Iraqi invasion validated, because I don’t regard it as a legitimate action, but invalidation means more of our soldiers get killed. > > Starting these wars can be a really effective way to keep political adversaries in a lose-lose situation. Bush may be a ass, but he’s not stupid. Preach on, brutha. Defeat? No. I don’t wish for defeat. I don’t think we have any legitimate business in Iraq; if Iraq was justified, then so is the invasion of every other dictatorship on the planet… which is ironic and immoral, considering how many dictatorships we’ve been chummy with in the past, and continue to be now. Defeat in Iraq would involve the slaughter of American soldiers, and likely not a few Iraqis, and to be in favor of that is wrong. There’s no easy way out, now, though. If we were to pack up and leave tomorrow, the Iraqis would butcher each other unmercifully. …although why staying there and letting them butcher Americans is better than this, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/72 "2005-01-10T23:58:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I love America the _idea_, the revolution in progress, not some geographical coincidence. What the **fuck?** A national culture is not a “geographical coincidence,” **elucidator.** And neither is it an “idea.” If you start thinking of America as an idea-state like the Soviet Union rather than a plain old nation-state like France, then you’re getting perilously close to internalizing “American exceptionalism,” which is even more dangerous than ordinary patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/73 "2005-01-11T00:04:53Z")
> [@Jake the Plumber](#): > > Depends what you define “your country” as. It could be either the current administration, or the basic fundamental ideals that form the groundwork for our government and society. :rolleyes: I repeat: Our society is not the current administration, it is not even the 1789 Constitution nor the system established by it, and it definitely is **not** based on **ideals.** It is a nation like other nations – a distinct ethnocultural entity with a recognized historical territory. An America ruled by a king, a despot, an all-powerful church, a cabal of business executives, or a foreign army of occupation would still be America – just as China has gone through numerous dynasties, periods of disunion, periods of foreign rule, a Kuomintang republic and a Communist regime, yet still remains China. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/74 "2005-01-11T00:14:47Z")
Respectfully disagree. But not enough to argue the point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/75 "2005-01-11T00:33:31Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Webster defined patriotism as the last resort of the scoundrel. Actually, it was Samuel Johnson. See [http://www.samueljohnson.com/patrioti.html](http://www.samueljohnson.com/patrioti.html). ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/76 "2005-01-11T02:00:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …the folks who take to the streets, risking arrests or beatings by the cops, have a better claim on the term patriot, whether they are protesting a war, urging equal treatment of all races, or hastening the end of a tyrannical regime. Talking to one’s friends doesn’t really strike me as standing up for one’s country. By that measure, damn near everybody is a patriot, which I think takes the value out of the term. I’m still not comfortable that to call oneself a patriot requires passing some kind of test. And don’t forget, there are times and places when if you open your mouth for any reason and forgot to finish with, “Long live the Ruling party and it’s Leader!”, you are a done man. So mere frank private talk might take courage sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/77 "2005-01-11T02:02:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, it was Samuel Johnson. See [The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page: Quotes on Patriotism](http://www.samueljohnson.com/patrioti.html). I knew that! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/78 "2005-01-11T06:39:13Z")
A quote for my buddy **elucidator,** since I believe he was anglin’ for this sentiment a few posts ago: “I’m loyal to nothing, General – except The Dream.” –Captain America (Frank Miller, _Daredevil: Born Again_) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/79 "2005-01-11T07:00:29Z")
Before WWII, Charles Lindberg was staunchly opposed to the war. He may have even been a German sympathizer, as he had extensive connections in Germany though aviation. But when the war started, Lindberg stopped protesting immediately, volunteered for the army air corps, and made crucial contributions to the war effort. Lindberg knew where to draw the line. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/80 "2005-01-11T07:26:42Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Before WWII, Charles Lindberg was staunchly opposed to the war. He may have even been a German sympathizer, as he had extensive connections in Germany though aviation. > > But when the war started, Lindberg stopped protesting immediately, volunteered for the army air corps, and made crucial contributions to the war effort. > > Lindberg knew where to draw the line. Just to keep the record straight,[Lindberg](http://www.ww2pacific.com/lindbergh.html) tried to get back into the Army Reserve but was turned down so he went to the South Pacific as a civilian. While there there is not doubt he did valuable service to the US. However, the case of Lindberg in WWII is not similar to Vietnam. In WWII the US was attacked and Germany declared war. In Vietnam there was no direct threat to the US and the Domino Theory was more speculation, or maybe hypothesis, than theory. It should also be noted that Lindberg didn’t go to help in the war against Germany. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975.md?page=5)