# Can it sometimes be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975 "2005-01-10T02:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/101 "2005-01-13T00:13:40Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Personally, I find this concept extremely retrogressive, but it’s your thread. In view of clarification, I have to withdraw my earlier statement that it is possible to be a patriot and wish defeat upon your own country. That is only possible if you act upon ideas and ideals, motivated how you wish your country to be. In that case, personal ties and affections can be overcome for perceived greater good for many unknown people. If we are talking strictly about animal ties of blood, language, favorite foods etc., then NO, it’s not possible to entertain a thought about my side defeat, because it means simply a victory for those foreigners, who talk, eat, spit and shit ‘not like us’. And that’s all that matters, right? No, **Iskander.** I contend that even in terms of an “animal ties” definition of patriotism, it might be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country, because 1. As I explained in my OP, patriotism, like family loyalty, must have limits. Remember my example about your brother the bank robber – you can be loyal to him by getting him a good lawyer, without condoning his conduct and without wanting him to break out of jail or otherwise “win.” That does not mean you are **failing** in family loyalty, it means you are holding to it while properly subordinating it to higher concerns. Likewise, if your country is acting unjustly, then you might wish defeat on it, for justice’ sake, without thereby being any less loyal to your country. 2. You might wish defeat on your own nation if, in your opinion, that might be **the best thing for it,** in the sense that the Nazi regime’s defeat by the Allies was, in the long run, the best thing for Germany (that is, the German nation, not the German state), and the defeat of the Soviet Union by the West was the best thing for Russia (that is, the Russian nation, not any particular Russian state, pre- or post-Soviet). ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/102 "2005-01-13T00:23:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, **Iskander.** I contend that even in terms of an “animal ties” definition of patriotism, it might be patriotic to wish defeat on your own country, because > > 1. As I explained in my OP, patriotism, like family loyalty, must have limits. Remember my example about your brother the bank robber – you can be loyal to him by getting him a good lawyer, without condoning his conduct and without wanting him to break out of jail or otherwise “win.” That does not mean you are **failing** in family loyalty, it means you are holding to it while properly subordinating it to higher concerns. Likewise, if your country is acting unjustly, then you might wish defeat on it, for justice’ sake, without thereby being any less loyal to your country. > > 2. You might wish defeat on your own nation if, in your opinion, that might be **the best thing for it,** in the sense that the Nazi regime’s defeat by the Allies was, in the long run, the best thing for Germany (that is, the German nation, not the German state), and the defeat of the Soviet Union by the West was the best thing for Russia (that is, the Russian nation, not any particular Russian state, pre- or post-Soviet). So who says the defeat of Iraq isn’t the best thing to happen for its people? Sure theres violence, but the prospect of democracy and good government is alot closer than the previous regime ever was. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/103 "2005-01-13T00:25:06Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Don’t you realize that present Iraq situation is a result of a long crisis, starting from first Gulf War at the latest, but most likely much earlier, since US oil companies went to Middle East to do business? That prolonged crisis was presided over by many administrations of both parties and no one was able to resolve it. In retrospect, many things were done wrong, and may be US indeed deserves our ‘place shown to us’, but to heap all blame on Bush is extremely myopic. It’s like blaming a surgeon for excising a cyst. What “long crisis” are you talking about, exactly? How did U.S. oil companies start a “crisis” by doing business in the ME? > [@New Iskander](#): > > Again, Russian revolutionaries desired defeat upon Russian gov’t, because they hoped it would bring democratic reforms and greater freedoms for Russia. What reforms and what freedoms will US derive from defeat in Iraq? It would teach us Americans a valuable lesson – that we **can’t** try to be the world’s policeman, still less its imperial hegemon, and that the rational thing for us to do would be to either (1) build down our defense establishment and go isolationist, at least in military terms; or (2) give up some of our precious sovereignty and become a senior-but-not-dominant partner in a new international military alliance, e.g. a merger of NATO with the EU. It would also teach us not to elect any more politicians that want to lead us into military adventures abroad. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/104 "2005-01-13T00:26:32Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So who says the defeat of Iraq isn’t the best thing to happen for its people? Sure theres violence, but the prospect of democracy and good government is alot closer than the previous regime ever was. Perhaps both propositions are true: The defeat of the Hussein regime is the best thing that could happen to the Iraqi people; and the subsequent defeat of the U.S. occupation of Iraq is the best thing that could happen to the American people. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/105 "2005-01-13T00:28:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps both propositions are true: The defeat of the Hussein regime is the best thing that could happen to the Iraqi people; and the subsequent defeat of the U.S. occupation of Iraq is the best thing that could happen to the American people. Somehow I doubt that highly, secondly, I find it offensive. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/106 "2005-01-13T00:47:01Z")
I doubt history cares whether or not you are offended, **Ryan.** ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/107 "2005-01-13T01:05:35Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I doubt history cares whether or not you are offended, **Ryan.** Hehe, you’re right, then I guess history doesn’t care about your opinion either. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/108 "2005-01-13T03:22:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps both propositions are true: The defeat of the Hussein regime is the best thing that could happen to the Iraqi people; and the subsequent defeat of the U.S. occupation of Iraq is the best thing that could happen to the American people. Very well, let’s consider Iraqis who suffered for decades under Hussein and desperately wished his end. There are millions of them, quite likely a majority of Iraq population. Simple people, desiring to live normal everyday lives. Finally, their dreams come true. Hussein is taken down. Democratic elections scheduled. End of story? Not quite. Chaos, murder and fear all around. Obviously, US defeat will crash hopes of all those people. And for what purpose? So we can learn to try not to be the world policeman? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/109 "2005-01-13T09:50:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So who says the defeat of Iraq isn’t the best thing to happen for its people? Sure theres violence, but the prospect of democracy and good government is alot closer than the previous regime ever was. This is GD - prove that Democracy is the best thing to happen to the Iraqi people. Seeing as how it’s a repressed majority about to take power over a hated minority, I would think violent reprisals and revenge legislation would be the first thing to occur due to years of repression. Oh, that and a popularly elected theocratic leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/110 "2005-01-13T14:30:02Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > This is GD - prove that Democracy is the best thing to happen to the Iraqi people. > > Seeing as how it’s a repressed majority about to take power over a hated minority, I would think violent reprisals and revenge legislation would be the first thing to occur due to years of repression. Oh, that and a popularly elected theocratic leadership. Just like the Sunnis did to their Shi’te counterparts for years on end when they were in power? Wait a minute there, if violent reprisals and revenge killings is what the Shi’tes wanted to carry out on a large scale, who says they would of held back for so long? You think elections would of been a precursor for any oppression they would carry out? I highly doubt that. Look, the Shi’tes aren’t stupid, they know the key to any prosperous Shi’te majority run state is to ensure minority rights, I highly doubt they are that naive to think they can oppress the Sunnis and think they can get away with it without the prospect of increased killings and bombings. Theocracy wouldn’t work in Iraq for the reason that the population is too diverse for it to be imposed, plus just because the Shi’tes are voting in pretty much one block doesn’t mean they all agree on religion mixing in with politics, they’ve learned from their neighbour, Iran where that can lead too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/111 "2005-01-13T22:50:36Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Very well, let’s consider Iraqis who suffered for decades under Hussein and desperately wished his end. There are millions of them, quite likely a majority of Iraq population. Simple people, desiring to live normal everyday lives. Finally, their dreams come true. Hussein is taken down. Democratic elections scheduled. End of story? Not quite. Chaos, murder and fear all around. Obviously, US defeat will crash hopes of all those people. And for what purpose? So we can learn to try not to be the world policeman? I suggested defeat of the occupation might be the best thing that could happen to the **American** people, **Iskander,** not the best thing that could happen to the **Iraqi** people. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975/112 "2005-01-14T11:48:09Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Just like the Sunnis did to their Shi’te counterparts for years on end when they were in power? Yep, thanks for proving my point. Unless you’re saying that the Shi’ites deserve their change at revenge? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Wait a minute there, if violent reprisals and revenge killings is what the Shi’tes wanted to carry out on a large scale, who says they would of held back for so long? You think elections would of been a precursor for any oppression they would carry out? I highly doubt that. Regardless of whether you doubt it, prove it won’t happen. You’re assuming that the Shi’ites have been holding back because they know what’s good for 'em. I propose that the Shi’ites are holding back because they don’t actually have power yet and once they do, will use that power to further their own agenda at the cost of the Sunnis. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Look, the Shi’tes aren’t stupid, they know the key to any prosperous Shi’te majority run state is to ensure minority rights, Securing minority rights has nothign to do with success in running a major state. You’re grasping at straws here. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I highly doubt they are that naive to think they can oppress the Sunnis and think they can get away with it without the prospect of increased killings and bombings. Who’s going to stop them? They will be the legitimate government. Are you saying that the US would not allow them to do things against the Sunni minority that is composed of Ba’athist party members and foreign terrorists? Osama is Sunni, remember… You are being naive. One thing they have definitely learned from Saddam’s time in power is the value of revenge. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Theocracy wouldn’t work in Iraq for the reason that the population is too diverse for it to be imposed, plus just because the Shi’tes are voting in pretty much one block doesn’t mean they all agree on religion mixing in with politics, they’ve learned from their neighbour, Iran where that can lead too. The population is diverse, but at the same time all Muslim, with a huge Shi’ite majority. If the powerful Shi’a clerics all take to the same banner, I would be willing to bet that the people will follow their directions. Which would lead to a theocratic Shi’a state in power in Iraq. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-it-sometimes-be-patriotic-to-wish-defeat-on-your-own-country/283975.md?page=5)