# Can kosher jews it a mulefoot hog? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 19, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265 "2010-09-19T07:56:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/21 "2010-09-20T18:27:35Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > This may be nitpicking, but my understanding is that Jews themselves are in fact not kosher. > [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > So rabbit meat isn’t kosher? Huh … You mean “rabbi meat.” ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/22 "2010-09-20T18:57:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Giraffe is, though. :hijack: A friend had an obscure animal’s horn for their _shofar_ {bugle made from an animal’s horn} instead of the customary sheep. I wondered aloud if a giraffe had a horn that could be used as a _shofar_. Anybody care to weigh in with TSD? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/23 "2010-09-20T19:02:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There are people, like me, who keep kosher but post on Saturdays. However, Saturday was Yom Kippur, which means that pretty much any kosher Jew would not be on the internet. > > Or eating anything, mulefoot or not. > > Be that as it may, I don’t believe I can “it” anything. But not, a mulefoot hog is not kosher. > > Giraffe is, though. Is it, though? I had thought that the animal had to be domesticated (in addition to the cud/cloven hoof bit) to really be considered OK. This assumption dates back to a trip with **Typo Knig** to the American Museum of Natural History in New York a couple of decades ago, where I pointed to various stuffed critters, noted their hoof status, and asked if they were kosher. He didn’t think so for that reason, but we could be very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/24 "2010-09-20T19:06:33Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Giraffe is, though. > > :hijack: > > A friend had an obscure animal’s horn for their _shofar_ {bugle made from an animal’s horn} instead of the customary sheep. I wondered aloud if a giraffe had a horn that could be used as a _shofar_. Anybody care to weigh in with TSD? Curious myself, I looked into it. Would you believe Wikipedia has an article about this? [ > [@Wikipedia](#): > > According to the Talmud, a shofar may be made from the horn of any animal from the Bovidae family except that of a cow or calf (Rosh Hashanah, 26a), although a ram is preferable. (Mishnah Berurah 586:1). Bovidae horns are made of keratin (the same material as human toenails and fingernails). An antler, on the other hand, is not a horn but solid bone. Antlers cannot be used as a shofar because they cannot be hollowed out. ]([Shofar - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shofar)) ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/25 "2010-09-20T19:07:12Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > > > This may be nitpicking, but my understanding is that Jews themselves are in fact not kosher. > > > [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > > > So rabbit meat isn’t kosher? Huh … > > You mean “rabbi meat.” That either. “Long pig” is too close to the other sort. Slight hijack: Most fish is kosher, and supposedly\* a 16th century pope declared capybara (large rodent - think guinea pig on steroids) to be “fish”. So an ecumenical-minded Jew might chow down on guinea pig fritters on Shabbat, with no qualms whatsoever. \*yeah, it’s a popular urban legend but google doesn’t turn up any hard cites for it but it’s a fun story anyway ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/26 "2010-09-20T19:13:14Z")
> [@Second](#): > > Can kosher jews it a mulefoot hog? _Doo-dah! doo-dah!_ ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/27 "2010-09-20T19:15:53Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > > [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > > > :hijack: > > > > A friend had an obscure animal’s horn for their _shofar_ {bugle made from an animal’s horn} instead of the customary sheep. I wondered aloud if a giraffe had a horn that could be used as a _shofar_. Anybody care to weigh in with TSD? > > Curious myself, I looked into it. Would you believe Wikipedia has an article about this? > [ > > > [@Wikipedia](#): > > > > According to the Talmud, a shofar may be made from the horn of any animal from the Bovidae family except that of a cow or calf (Rosh Hashanah, 26a), although a ram is preferable. (Mishnah Berurah 586:1). Bovidae horns are made of keratin (the same material as human toenails and fingernails). An antler, on the other hand, is not a horn but solid bone. Antlers cannot be used as a shofar because they cannot be hollowed out. > > ]([Shofar - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shofar)) That and 3.3 million other articles. From the article on [Giraffe horns](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe#Horns): > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Both sexes have horns, although the horns of a female are smaller. The prominent horns are formed from ossified cartilage, and are called ossicones. :byejack: ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/28 "2010-09-20T19:19:01Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Slight hijack: Most fish is kosher, and supposedly\* a 16th century pope declared capybara (large rodent - think guinea pig on steroids) to be “fish”. So an ecumenical-minded Jew might chow down on guinea pig fritters on Shabbat, with no qualms whatsoever. > > \*yeah, it’s a popular urban legend but google doesn’t turn up any hard cites for it but it’s a fun story anyway While a lot of fish is kosher, I wouldn’t say “most” is. I heard the capybara story in a different context: it was a pope that declared it to be a fish, so Catholics were allowed to eat it over lent. [Here’s](http://www.nysun.com/foreign/in-days-before-easter-venezuelans-tuck-into/11063/) an article that seems to support that theory. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/29 "2010-09-20T19:25:02Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > I had thought that the animal had to be domesticated (in addition to the cud/cloven hoof bit) to really be considered OK. > > This assumption dates back to a trip with **Typo Knig** to the American Museum of Natural History in New York a couple of decades ago, where I pointed to various stuffed critters, noted their hoof status, and asked if they were kosher. He didn’t think so for that reason, but we could be very wrong. An animal doesn’t have to be domesticated to be kosher, but once you get outside the realm of domesticated animals, effecting a kosher killing is pretty difficult - meat isn’t kosher unless it dies an instant death without pain, and the official method is to sever both the jugular vein and the esophagus with a blade free of blemishes. If the animal feels pain or is physically marred in the process, the meat isn’t kosher. Deer, for instance, is a kosher animal, but the meat isn’t kosher when killed by hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/30 "2010-09-20T20:35:00Z")
I believe there’s a reference somewhere in the Old Testament to “Eat it as you would deer”, or some such, which makes explicit that deer are considered kosher. And the rule isn’t that fish per se are kosher; it’s that anything which lives in the water and which has fins and scales is kosher. Some fish (sharks, for instance) are considered not to have scales, and I imagine some (some kinds of eel, maybe) might not be considered to have fins. Capybaras, of course, have neither. I do wonder about icthyosaurs, though. On the one hand, they live in the water and have fins and scales, and all such animals are said to be kosher. On the other hand, though, they’re reptiles, and all reptiles are said to be unclean. Which rule takes precedence? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/31 "2010-09-20T20:39:17Z")
Man, I was totally expecting this to be another “I burning your dog!” ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/32 "2010-09-20T21:06:08Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > 1. As it is Saturday and the Sabbath, do not expect a Jew to answer before sundown. (But nice job keeping with the tradition of asking a technical question about Judaism on their Sabbath). > > The timestamp on the OP says it was posted at 12:56 AM today, which is Sunday and therefore not Shabbat. And that’s not even the most retarded thing about that statement considering that most Jews aren’t so observant that they stay off of the internet on the Sabbath and do know enough about their own culture to correctly answer the question. Why do people persist in saying stuff like that? ---
**Author:** ![kferr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/33 "2010-09-20T21:57:55Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > > [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > > > I had thought that the animal had to be domesticated (in addition to the cud/cloven hoof bit) to really be considered OK. > > > > This assumption dates back to a trip with **Typo Knig** to the American Museum of Natural History in New York a couple of decades ago, where I pointed to various stuffed critters, noted their hoof status, and asked if they were kosher. He didn’t think so for that reason, but we could be very wrong. > > An animal doesn’t have to be domesticated to be kosher, but once you get outside the realm of domesticated animals, effecting a kosher killing is pretty difficult - meat isn’t kosher unless it dies an instant death without pain, and the official method is to sever both the jugular vein and the esophagus with a blade free of blemishes. If the animal feels pain or is physically marred in the process, the meat isn’t kosher. > > Deer, for instance, is a kosher animal, but the meat isn’t kosher when killed by hunting. What if you’ve got a super-duper razor sharp metal hunting boomarang that could completely decapitate a deer or giraffe in one go from a distance? Would that meet the letter of the law, if not the spirit? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/34 "2010-09-20T22:52:39Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > And that’s not even the most retarded thing about that statement considering that most Jews aren’t so observant that they stay off of the internet on the Sabbath and do know enough about their own culture to correctly answer the question. Why do people persist in saying stuff like that? For several years here on the Dope our Jews who usually answered such questions WERE observant enough to stay off the internet on the sabbath, so it become a sort of running joke that folks who had questions about Judaic practice would always ask on the Jewish sabbath and we’d all have to wait a day until they showed up to answer. Of course, things change. Perhaps we have more Jews who are non-observant now. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/35 "2010-09-20T23:50:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@hajario](#): > > > > And that’s not even the most retarded thing about that statement considering that most Jews aren’t so observant that they stay off of the internet on the Sabbath and do know enough about their own culture to correctly answer the question. Why do people persist in saying stuff like that? > > For several years here on the Dope our Jews who usually answered such questions WERE observant enough to stay off the internet on the sabbath, so it become a sort of running joke that folks who had questions about Judaic practice would always ask on the Jewish sabbath and we’d all have to wait a day until they showed up to answer. > > Of course, things change. Perhaps we have more Jews who are non-observant now. I have been around here just as long as you and it has NEVER been the case that questions weren’t answered because the Jewish Sabbath prevented it. You are flat out wrong about this. There HAS been a long ago played out joke akin to the “Hi Opal” thing but that has nothing to do with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/36 "2010-09-21T00:57:16Z")
Just chill, OK? Sure, other people can come in and try to answer the question, but our most observant Jews won’t be here on the Sabbath. I really don’t understand why you have your panties in a bunch over that. We really do have members who are highly knowledgeable about Jewish law and custom who really don’t post on Jewish sabbath. We have other knowledgeable people (some Jewish, some not) who can and do post 24/7. It’s not like anyone is forbidding anyone to post on a particular day here. On the other hand, some people _don’t_ post on the sabbath. Why is noting this fact making you upset? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/37 "2010-09-21T01:13:20Z")
> [@kferr](#): > > What if you’ve got a super-duper razor sharp metal hunting boomarang that could completely decapitate a deer or giraffe in one go from a distance? Would that meet the letter of the law, if not the spirit? Assuming you had the forethought to have the blade inspected and certified, you’d probably be good. Then again, “build a fence around the torah,” my goyishe friend. (when in doubt, don’t do it). ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/38 "2010-09-21T02:39:11Z")
I’m no theologian, but I’m pretty sure Jews don’t have to listen to the Pope. eta: This is also known as the “just because a guy in a funny hat said it was a fish…” principal. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/39 "2010-09-21T02:58:05Z")
Fun item on kosher practice [here](http://www.forward.com/articles/129694/), > [@Nathan Jeffay](#): > > At the Eucalyptus, a restaurant just outside Jerusalem’s Old City walls, 250 Orthodox Jews gathered in late July to learn Talmud and to discover what meat-and-milk tastes like. The meat had been marinating in milk for, well, almost a lifetime. The dish was udder of cow, which, as the many rabbis in attendance pointed out, is recommended by the Talmud… > > Most challenging are birds, which are deemed kosher only if an oral tradition exists saying that they are… > > Kosher laws ban all insects except for four types of locust, but matching the biblical description with the locusts existing today has proved difficult… ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265/40 "2010-09-21T03:14:08Z")
So a rabbit is considered to chew the cud because it eats its pellets? I did not know that. Interestingly, I am familiar with at least one industrial-scale hog rearing facility that uses a giant auger/press arrangement to squeeze the moisture out of the pig manure, so that the manure solids can be mixed back into the pig feed. A diet consisting of 15% dried pig manure increases pig average daily weight gain by ~10% compared to a no-manure diet. Actually, [here’s](http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/x6518e/X6518E03.htm) a link addressing all sorts of manure refeeding schemes: poultry to poultry, cattle to poultry, pig to lamb, etc. Does this qualify as chewing the cud, like in the case of rabbits? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-kosher-jews-it-a-mulefoot-hog/554265.md?page=3)