# Can libertarian free agency be distinct from deterministic, random, and semi-random causation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472 "2021-04-21T19:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/41 "2021-04-25T21:23:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You just claimed to see it when I restated your argument. […] But you do seem to be claiming that free agency means that someone can make a different choice when in the identical scenario. Yet I do not argue that free agency is a form of random event causation. Just because the outcome to an event is not determined does not mean it is random event causation. Your ‘restatement of my argument’ is not actually a restatement of my argument, because the conclusion is not one I have ever argued for. As far as I can tell, it doesn’t follow from the premises I laid out. I suspect you have misinterpreted my position by making an assumption where I don’t. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > Are you rejecting the possibility that the probabilities of outcomes to an event are unknowable > > No, I am rejecting that they _cannot_ ever be known. The way I see it, “unknowable” means “that which cannot ever be known”. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I take it that you’ve never played chess then? The whole point of that is predicting what someone else will do, given a certain scenario. Predictions are made, but not with metaphysical certainty required to categorize the decision event as “random” or “semi-random”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/42 "2021-04-25T22:12:56Z")
When Hari Seldon used math to predict the future in the _Foundation_ trilogy was he determining the behaviors of all who came after him or merely predicting what they would do? What if his calculations were 100% accurate? Did Seldon force people to act without free will? Does the act of 100% accurate prediction force behavior? A little like Schrödinger’s Cat? IOW, just because you know without a doubt what I will have for lunch tomorrow doesn’t mean you “made” me choose what to eat. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/43 "2021-04-25T22:21:28Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > What if his calculations were 100% accurate? Did Seldon force people to act without free will? Does the act of 100% accurate prediction force behavior? A little like Schrödinger’s Cat? If the prediction was made with absolute _certainty_ the outcome must have been forced. I mean metaphysical certainty, it has to be objective truth - not just some subjective sense of certainty. If I have absolute certainty that you will have a ham sandwich for lunch tomorrow, then you are powerless to avoid that fate. Whatever gave me certainty in my prediction is actually forcing you to meet it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/44 "2021-04-25T22:29:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Whatever gave me certainty in my prediction is actually forcing you to meet it. Hmmm. I’m not so sure about this. I will have to mull it over some more. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/45 "2021-04-25T22:32:04Z")
Think insider trading. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/46 "2021-04-25T23:17:04Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > random event causation Could you clarify that? There are random numbers but are there random events and random causes? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/47 "2021-04-25T23:50:00Z")
Event: > “[A] process that produces an outcome.” ETA: > “Outcomes, groups of outcomes, and groups of events are events in their own right.” Causation: > “[A]n event producing an outcome.” Random event causation: > “[W]hereby physical laws allow for multiple valid yet mutually exclusive outcomes to some event, and where even with perfect physical knowledge the outcome may be most accurately predicted by assigning equal probabilities to each physically possible outcome”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/48 "2021-04-26T03:31:49Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I’m sorry to disappoint, but I don’t think ‘how free agency works’ is knowable. My categorization of it as a separate category of event causation is based on the mechanism or process being unknowable. Well admitting it is at least a step. You take the position of libertarian free will because it’s a conclusion that you like. That’s all. You don’t care whether it has any evidence supporting it, or any explanatory power, or even whether the model has been fleshed out whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2021, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472/49 "2021-04-26T06:25:01Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well admitting it is at least a step. The first step, mind you. I quoted post #2. 😉 > [@Mijin](#): > > You take the position of libertarian free will because it’s a conclusion that you like. That’s all. > You don’t care whether it has any evidence supporting it, or any explanatory power, Right. I choose to believe in libertarian free will for _moral_ reasons, but those are off-topic. > [@Mijin](#): > > or even whether the model has been fleshed out whatsoever. I care a little bit about fleshing it out - enough to write this topic. I’m interested in whether my personal philosophy withstands logical scrutiny. Have I contradicted myself? ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-libertarian-free-agency-be-distinct-from-deterministic-random-and-semi-random-causation/940472.md?page=2)