# Can lonesome polecats' charges be debunked? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486 "2010-11-21T23:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/81 "2010-11-23T01:11:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Right? You certainly wouldn’t be saying, “Hey, it was his job to pick who he liked!” I would, because it was. I guess I could heap on the personal scorn for the judge (and truth be told, I kinda dislike Hilton) but I see no indication the rules of the contest were disregarded. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/82 "2010-11-23T01:54:27Z")
I disagree. Ms. Prejean had the sort of lantern jaw that comic book superheroes can only dream of, and a rictus like the stretch of a canvas canoe. She was predestined to win, and her defeat is the most tangible evidence to date of the sinister, vengeful influence of leftist faggotry. ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/83 "2010-11-23T02:21:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agreed. “Unfair,” is not the correct word. > > But I stand by the rest of my assessment: if we were discussing a contestant strongly penalized for the view that same-sex marriage SHOULD be legal, or that interracial marriage is perfectly fine, many people would be discussing this with precisely the same outraged tones we see from **lonesome polecat**. Agreed, but that’s both reflective of the real problem and missing it at the same time. Prejean’s problem wasn’t that she gave a conservative answer, it was that she gave a divisive one. For better or worse, beauty pageant contestants are judged on their ability to spew non-offensive pablum. Isn’t “I would wish for world peace,” the stereotypical answer? By that standard, she wasn’t judged unfairly. In either case, the actual situation or those you propose, those offended by the answer would be defending the decision, and those in agreement would be lauding it. But it matters not – the offense that cost her the title was being insensitive to the politics of her answer, and offending a judge. Not, mind you, that I’m proposing that Perez Hilton voted against her for those reasons. He was just the idiot representative of those who would be offended by her unwise answer. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/84 "2010-11-23T02:28:55Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > … rictus like the stretch of a canvas canoe. Rictus? Damn near killed us! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/85 "2010-11-23T02:58:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For what it’s worth, I believe there’s at least a glimmer of truth to that view as applied to Palin: when Palin was first selected for nomination, some commentators on the left ran with the charge that she conspired to conceal her unmarried daughter’s pregnancy by claiming the resulting baby as her own. Um… really? As I recall, the only people making such a claim were some wags on [Fark.com](http://Fark.com). Also, possibly **Dio**. > [@Bricker](#): > > Ah, but let’s frame it a bit differently. > > On Day 1, Prejean’s status is, “Will be judged by the totality of her presentation: looks, talent, charm.” > > On Day 2, Prejean’s status is, “Will be judged only by her view on same-sex marriage, which no other contestant has been asked about.” Presumably, if she was judged only by her view on same sex marriage, she would have finished last, or at any rate not first. Unless the other judges awarded extra points. > [@Bricker](#): > > No, I don’t agree. > > If we substitute race and a race-baiting question for Perez Hilton’s, we can easily see the unfairness. We could imagine a Miss Mississippi 1964 contestant being asked about how she feels about the “recent” Loving v. Virginia Supreme Court case by a judge who’s known to have strong segregationist views. The contestant would answer that she welcomes the decision because love and marriage should not know racial boundaries, and the judge gives her such a low score that she is unable to win. > > In such a case, no one here would object to characterizing the situation as Prejean’s has been characterized. > > Right? You certainly wouldn’t be saying, “Hey, it was his job to pick who he liked!” No, you’d know that the judge used his view of racial relations as the single criteria, and because you strongly disagree with that judge’s view, you’d be comfortable assigning insalubrious characterizations to the process by which the contestant was eliminated. We’d be saying, “boy, that judge is a total douche”, which is pretty much what everyone thinks of Perez Hilton. Assuming Miss Not Mississippi didn’t turn out to have skanky topless pictures online\*, we’d probably turn her into a media star, too. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I disagree. Ms. Prejean had the sort of lantern jaw that comic book superheroes can only dream of, and a rictus like the stretch of a canvas canoe. She was predestined to win, and her defeat is the most tangible evidence to date of the sinister, vengeful influence of leftist faggotry. I’d hit it. \*and “online” existed in 1964. ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/86 "2010-11-23T03:03:44Z")
> [@Kyrie\_Eleison](#): > > In either case, the actual situation or those you propose, those offended by the answer would be defending the decision, and those in agreement would be lauding it. Yikes, that’s really poorly constructed. To clarify, I meant that those in agreement with her position would be lauding her answer. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/87 "2010-11-23T04:30:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I stand by the rest of my assessment: if we were discussing a contestant strongly penalized for the view that same-sex marriage SHOULD be legal, or that interracial marriage is perfectly fine, many people would be discussing this with precisely the same outraged tones we see from **lonesome polecat**. One of these things is not like the others… In the one case, we have a contestant penalized for saying all people are equal and should have the same rights. In the other, we have contestant who claims to be a Christian saying that she believes in Jesus (except for the whole “Love thy neighbor” part - obviously some medieval monk left off the “…except for fags.” part). Snark aside, she expressed a prejudiced position to a member of the communty she’s prejudiced about. To put it in other terms, had Billy Graham been a judge and had a contestant said, “I think Christians are morally reprehensible and should be denied the right to worship their fake god.” I wouldn’t bat an eye if she lost because of Billy’s vote. Why do conservatives consistently misrepresent the liberal position as thinking that we must somehow tolerate intolerance because we’re liberal? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/88 "2010-11-23T05:01:00Z")
Because tolerance is useless if you only tolerate those who agree with you. And because trying to control what someone else does is an authoritarian position, not a liberal one. I’m pretty liberal, and yet I know that. And of course if your critique of someone else is that they aren’t tolerant, they’re going to point out where you are not tolerant. The main point with Ms. Prejean is that she gave a stupid answer. These beauty pageants are not solely about beauty, but about whether you are smart enough not to bring disrepute on the pageant organizers. She was not smart enough, so she got voted down. Pageants are not about being fair, they are about appeasing the judges. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/89 "2010-11-23T05:06:40Z")
Its because liberalism is invariably a form of elitism, hence we are assured that liberal declarations of tolerance are empty and hypocritical. They look down on minorities and social outcasts just as much as anyone, they simply refuse to admit it because they curry favor for votes to realize their narrow, elitist agenda of universal equality and acceptance. Which is why NPR firing Juan Williams is just the same as some inbred cracker gunning down Medgar Evars. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/90 "2010-11-23T05:14:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > True. The pageant is more like a job interview. > > It is rather close to interviewing for a secretary/receptionist at a doctor’s office. You find a candidate. She is smart, congenial, knows the phone systems already, types 110 wpm and during the interview you find out she is an atheist. So you don’t hire her. > > Would you agree that she hasn’t been punished for expressing a view? > > Regards, > Shodan Again, consider what you’re saying: Two candidates apply for a job, they are equal in every way that matters for the job. At the end of the interview the obviously [insert adjective] boss asks, “what do you think about [that adjective]?” One candidate says, “I think they’re great and deserve equal treatment under the law.” Other candidate says, “I think they’re disgusting and the world should be cleansed of them.” If you were being interviewed, in a room covered with Chicago Bear’s merchandise, and the guy says, “What do you think of the Bear’s chances this year?” How dumb do you have to be to say, “I was raised in Green Bay and believe they are the only team that should win, go Packers!” Would you say you were punished for being a Packer’s fan? Or punished for being retarded. The mistake you’re making is trying to apply race and prejudice. The second candidate didn’t _have_ to say something stupid. All she had to do was smile her fake vaseline smile, and spout some bullshit about how children in Africa need our help and the world needs more peace. Carrie choose, freely, to give her answer. She wasn’t rejected because of previous comments, or something made outside of the competition. She wasn’t rejected because of factors outside of her control (race, religion, etc). Isn’t that what America is all about? Freedom and choice? She gave an answer that was dumber than her competition, who might be even morehomophobic, might even hate black people too! But instead, she swallowed her pride like so much cum and diet pills, then blurted out some bullshit about world peace. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/91 "2010-11-23T05:20:54Z")
Personally I think Prejean took a dive. She realized that becoming a martyr for Christian values would be a better gig than being another disposable beauty queen. So she waited until she could declare her beliefs in the most confrontational way possible. Then when the completely foreseeable result occurred, she could be gathered into the waiting arms of the right wing media machine that would make her a star while telling everyone how the mean old liberals had picked on her. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/92 "2010-11-23T05:38:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Personally I think Prejean took a dive. She realized that becoming a martyr for Christian values would be a better gig than being another disposable beauty queen. So she waited until she could declare her beliefs in the most confrontational way possible. Then when the completely foreseeable result occurred, she could be gathered into the waiting arms of the right wing media machine that would make her a star while telling everyone how the mean old liberals had picked on her. That, or she would have quit part way through her first term, blaming the evil main stream media for asking her hard questions. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/93 "2010-11-23T05:40:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Um… really? As I recall, the only people making such a claim were some wags on [Fark.com](http://Fark.com). Also, possibly **Dio**. The story showed up in the blogosphere as a thread at Daily Kos one morning. That thread laid out a very solid circumstantial case that Trigg was Bristol’s baby, but as people dug deeper it fell apart pretty quickly and the thread was closed. The newspaper in Anchorage later said that they had pursued the same idea not long after Trigg was born, but they similarly debunked it with a little more research. It was kind of an obvious conclusion when you looked at the odd circumstances around Trigg’s birth (Sarah didn’t tell anyone she was pregnant until very late; Bristol had a long absence from school for “mono” around the right time; Sarah’s long flight right before she gave birth; pictures showing Bristol looking preggo and Sarah not that turned out to be misdated, etc.) The story was well out of the mainstream of even the liberal blogosphere, much less the commentariat as a whole. The only mainstream blogger who brought it up regularly was Andrew Sullivan, who had no doubt that Trigg was Sarah’s but felt there were still unanswered questions, especially since Sarah had never released her medical records nor had she expressly denied the alternative version of events. Sorry for the hijack. I developed an odd fascination with this story as it was unfolding. ---
**Author:** ![wipetheclock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b19c9b/32.png) [@wipetheclock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wipetheclock)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/94 "2010-11-23T05:57:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because tolerance is useless if you only tolerate those who agree with you. And because trying to control what someone else does is an authoritarian position, not a liberal one. I’m pretty liberal, and yet I know that. And of course if your critique of someone else is that they aren’t tolerant, they’re going to point out where you are not tolerant. Define tolerance here. There is a substantial difference between putting someone in jail or stringing them up and calling them an idiot. Allowing ridiculous opinions to be expressed does not mean accepting those opinions. I defend the right of those freaks at Westboro Baptist Church to spew their hate. I also reserve the right to call them a bunch of useless bigoted fucks. These positions are not in conflict. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/95 "2010-11-23T06:09:39Z")
As for Prejean, can we at least agree that her answer was shitty? The question was whether she believed that gay marriage should be legalized in all fifty states. Her answer: > [@Carrie Prejean](#): > > Well I think it’s great that Americans are able to choose one way or the other. We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage. And, you know what, in my country, in my family, I think that, I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, no offense to anybody out there. But that’s how I was raised and I believe that it should be between a man and a woman. You can almost reconcile that into something coherent. I know plenty of people who feel abortion is wrong but are nonetheless glad women have the right to one, so I guess one could feel the same way about gay marriage. But that’s not what happened. She started out by trying to formulate a non-offensive answer, but when she realized that it was making her sound like she was all for gay marriage she ran back the other way. She didn’t answer the question at all. Her response was nothing more that nervous yammering, and even if she hadn’t said anything controversial or objectionable she should have had points taken off for being incoherent. (Also: I hate people who use their upbringing as an excuse for their prejudices, while showing no indication that they realize those prejudices are wrong and that they are working to leave them behind. No offense to anybody out there, but that’s the way _I_ was raised.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/96 "2010-11-23T06:25:46Z")
Perez Hilton is gay. So if Prejean gave an answer that could offend a gay, then we are back to her being stupid. It was a stupid thing for her to say in those circumstances. If she felt her convictions so strongly she had to stand up against the “gays”, at all costs, then she got what she asked for. She should have known a gay would be offended by her answer. She paid the cost. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/97 "2010-11-23T07:06:27Z")
Jeez, **gonzo** , did you just out the guy? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/98 "2010-11-23T12:02:56Z")
> [@Kyrie\_Eleison](#): > > Agreed, but that’s both reflective of the real problem and missing it at the same time. Prejean’s problem wasn’t that she gave a conservative answer, it was that she gave a divisive one. For better or worse, beauty pageant contestants are judged on their ability to spew non-offensive pablum. Isn’t “I would wish for world peace,” the stereotypical answer? > > By that standard, she wasn’t judged unfairly. In either case, the actual situation or those you propose, those offended by the answer would be defending the decision, and those in agreement would be lauding it. But it matters not – the offense that cost her the title was being insensitive to the politics of her answer, and offending a judge. > > Not, mind you, that I’m proposing that Perez Hilton voted against her for those reasons. He was just the idiot representative of those who would be offended by her unwise answer. OK, I agree. There’s been a chorus of voices expressing this and slight variations ofthis point, from enough different people that I don’t think it’s obstinate adoption of a principle just to win an argument. Besides, it makes sense. So I withdraw the point; you’ve convinced me. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/99 "2010-11-23T12:46:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t believe your analysis is in good faith. I don’t believe the screed he responded to deserves a point by point rebuttal. It’s garbage pure and simple. But feel free to try your usual weasel-word tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486/100 "2010-11-23T12:57:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Why do you claim she deserved to win? Because the Right says so and Shodan is nothing if not utterly doctrinaire with his talking points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-lonesome-polecats-charges-be-debunked/561486.md?page=6)