# Can mailmen tresspass? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 12, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061 "2017-07-12T02:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/21 "2017-07-12T21:20:43Z")
Try a “Beware of Dog” sign instead? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/22 "2017-07-12T21:37:54Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Or do this- calling the post office to discuss your situation and leaving instructions for the carriers on your route really can work. They’ve been doing that for ten years. Every year there’s either a new mailman, or the delivery instructions get lost or forgotten. Rinse and repeat. > [@pabstist](#): > > Living here for 10 years, we have asked him a number of times to not do this, and even filled out forms at the post office, and spoken to the local post master. Which seems to last about a year. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/23 "2017-07-12T21:54:13Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > They’ve been doing that for ten years. Every year there’s either a new mailman, or the delivery instructions get lost or forgotten. Rinse and repeat. I missed that last bit- I misread the part I _did_ see as only having spoken to the mailman. Never mind… ---
**Author:** ![4d3fect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/4d3fect/32/9728_2.png) [@4d3fect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/4d3fect)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/24 "2017-07-12T22:21:32Z")
I think there’s an inherent contradiction there that can’t be permanently resolved: You have mail delivery to your address, but don’t want ALL of your mail delivered to your address, just SOME of it. Sooner or later, your specific instructions will be lost or forgotten, and the institutional drive to fulfill its mission will continue unabated. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/25 "2017-07-12T23:04:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Especially since it’s his job to deliver the mail to that property. Absolutely not. It’s his job to deliver to the legally mandated point of delivery. If that is a street box, then any other point has to be decided by the recipient. As a matter of courtesy, carriers often go well out of their way to make deliveries. However, if pabstist has a letter on file at the Post Office telling carriers not to deliver onto his property, then they should not be delivering packages on his property. The OP implies he’s had a long term carrier who should know this. (Subs know nothing and get told less.) If he’s forgetting your request, keep reminding him. If he’s ignoring your request, then he’s probably getting heat from his supervisor about undelivered packages. Take it up with the supervisor or the postmaster. Find out what the policies are and why a written order is being ignored. (It may be that they’ve been forced to reorganize the route umpteen times and stuff gets lost in transition. You’d be amazed how often routes get changed by outside factors and new regulations from above.) That keep out sign is not sufficient, IMO. Carriers have to go across keep out signs on a regular basis. I’m basing this on my experience as a substitute carrier summers during college, but I’ve never read anything about the modern USPS that would contradict this. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/26 "2017-07-13T11:19:59Z")
See [United States of America and United States Postal Service,plaintiffs-appellees, v. City of Pittsburg, California, Defendant-appellant,andnational Association of Letter Carriers, Intervenor-appellant, 661 F.2d 783 (9th Cir. 1981) :: Justia](http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/661/783/298062/) > [@](#): > > The conflict here between federal and local law is clear. The local ordinance prohibits postal carriers from crossing lawns unless they first obtain the owner’s express consent. Federal law, on the other hand, authorizes postal carriers to cross lawns unless the owner objects. Postal regulations provide that "(c)arriers may cross lawns while making deliveries if patrons do not object and there are no particular hazards to the carrier."1 If the owner puts up a sign saying “no postmen” then thats binding. Your “no tresspassing , keep out” is not applying to them because that is taken the same as a closed gate ,fence, or an “unauthorisied access prohibited” sign… The reason is the federal postal law authorises them… they hav a reason to be there… tresspass is entering without good reason… Also the laws regarding tresspass are state, and the US PS operates with the federal law, so usurps your state law on tresspass. So read that case, where the judge says simply, “well the law is that the owner has to specifically deny entry, the state of california can’t do it for every land owner”. … You deny entry, they cannot enter. You just need to tell the ones that use the federal postal law that you are denying entry using that law. I wouldn’t suggest threatening … that could be read as absurd… humour. just tell them clearly. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/27 "2017-07-13T11:53:32Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Get a post office box and just pick up all your mail since you have so many issues with the standard method of mail delivery. This is likely the only real fix. Years ago I had a problem with the mailman leaving my box open. Rain would soak my mail. I went up the chain, making complaints. The second time I spoke to the local postmaster he suggested taking down my mailbox and getting a box at the post office. He was apologetic, but explained that many of his drivers were independent contractors(?) and refused to do as he asked. Additionally, there was a shortage of drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/28 "2017-07-13T14:04:38Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Maybe post a sign specifically directed at the mailman? Something like, > > “Postman, if a package is too large to put in the mailbox, please leave a notification and take it back to the post office. Please do not attempt to deliver. We will pick it up ourselves.” Why not this? Think about it from the mailperson’s point of view: how many houses do you think they have on their route? And they may be a substitute for the regular one (you take sick days and vacation on occasion, don’t you?). So of course they’re going to occasionally forget or just never be told about specific instructions for each house. Just help them out by putting up a small sign at the mailbox reminding them of your preference. $.25 for the cardstock, $1.00 to get it laminated and $1.29 for the pen. Easy-peasey. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/29 "2017-07-13T14:11:37Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Think about it from the mailperson’s point of view: how many houses do you think they have on their route? And they may be a substitute for the regular one (you take sick days and vacation on occasion, don’t you?). Why not this? > So of course they’re going to occasionally forget or just never be told about specific instructions for each house. Just help them out by putting up a small sign at the mailbox reminding them of your preference. $.25 for the cardstock, $1.00 to get it laminated and $1.29 for the pen. Easy-peasey. This is the right way to handle it. Postpeople come and go, routes change, they can’t remember everyone’s prefrences, etc. It would be better to have a sign inside your mailbox which says what you want: "Attention: Under no circumstances should packages be delivered to the house. If mail is too large to fit in the box, leave a notice and I’ll pick it up at the PO. " What about other package carriers like UPS? Do you have a problem with them? You may need to put up a chain across the driveway if you really want to keep everyone out. I’m guessing people think the sign is for unauthorized people, but a UPS driver may think she’s authorized because she’s delivering a package you ordered. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/30 "2017-07-13T14:12:26Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > This is likely the only real fix. Years ago I had a problem with the mailman leaving my box open. Rain would soak my mail. I went up the chain, making complaints. Ok, well that’s a real problem. It’s reasonable to expect mail in the mailbox to not get rained on and someone who can’t remember to close the mailbox is a real doofus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/31 "2017-07-13T17:06:20Z")
I still dont understand why he doesnt get a mailbox in town and have packages mailed there instead. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/32 "2017-07-13T19:15:50Z")
Maybe because the oversized packages are fairly rare, and the majority fit his mailbox just fine? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/33 "2017-07-13T20:24:50Z")
The case of[Florida v. Jardines](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-564_5426.pdf) raises some of these issues, but mainly in the context of a police officer bringing a search dog to the front door of someone’s house. I think you can derive from the language, some of which talks about mailmen, that there is not an absolute right of a homeowner to prevent access to his front door, even with a no trespassing sign. How far that applies for a mail deliverer isn’t clear, but having official business, and with no intent except to deliver a package in his official capacity it doesn’t sound like the home owner’s rights would be violated. I would also wish anyone luck who thinks they have legal recourse if a mail delivery person brings a package to their front door no matter how many signs they put up with whatever is written on them, or whatever instructions they may leave with the Post Office. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/34 "2017-07-13T21:49:26Z")
So from this thread can we conclude that if the postman wants to walk into your house and put you’re mail on the dining room table, even if you told him not to, that he still legally can? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/35 "2017-07-13T21:50:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The case of[Florida v. Jardines](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-564_5426.pdf) raises some of these issues, but mainly in the context of a police officer bringing a search dog to the front door of someone’s house. I think you can derive from the language, some of which talks about mailmen, that there is not an absolute right of a homeowner to prevent access to his front door, even with a no trespassing sign. How far that applies for a mail deliverer isn’t clear, but having official business, and with no intent except to deliver a package in his official capacity it doesn’t sound like the home owner’s rights would be violated. > > I would also wish anyone luck who thinks they have legal recourse if a mail delivery person brings a package to their front door no matter how many signs they put up with whatever is written on them, or whatever instructions they may leave with the Post Office. Read the OP, this is about the postman going to the BACK porch. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/36 "2017-07-13T22:02:31Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Read the OP, this is about the postman going to the BACK porch. Yesbut- he hasnt come back to explain. Why not the front porch? Maybe what he considered his “back” porch is the one closest to the road/mailbox. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/37 "2017-07-14T10:29:49Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So from this thread can we conclude that if the postman wants to walk into your house and put you’re mail on the dining room table, even if you told him not to, that he still legally can? If he knocks twice, yes. ---
**Author:** ![pabstist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e99b99/32.png) [@pabstist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pabstist)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/38 "2017-07-19T02:37:49Z")
I guess my question should have been about my specific mailman. “Is he an asshole, apathetic, or brave for walking past a keep out sign?” Forget about what’s legal, etc. BTW, you can see the front door from the mailbox, since ya know, it faces the road that the mailbox is on. BUT HE NEVER GOES TO THE FRONT DOOR! Sorry, I left that part out. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/39 "2017-07-19T02:50:11Z")
> [@pabstist](#): > > BTW, you can see the front door from the mailbox, since ya know, it faces the road that the mailbox is on. BUT HE NEVER GOES TO THE FRONT DOOR! Sorry, I left that part out. Maybe he thinks he is doing you a favor by putting it somewhere less visible and consequently less likely to get stolen? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061/40 "2017-07-19T03:32:49Z")
“Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night nor the desires of customers stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed” Underlined the oft-missed portion of the USPS creed. ;)😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-mailmen-tresspass/791061.md?page=3)