# Can my business legally refuse to serve Fred Phelps? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785 "2010-11-15T21:43:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/21 "2010-11-17T00:47:30Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Yes, for one individual. All I was saying is if they turn away all members of the West Baptist Church even those that never participated in the demonstrations simply because they are members of the WBC, they might run afoul of the law. From the several things I have read about the Phelpsites, the Westboro Baptist Church is a very small outfit, and most of them are related to Rev. Fred. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/22 "2010-11-17T00:58:55Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > From the several things I have read about the Phelpsites, the Westboro Baptist Church is a very small outfit, and most of them are related to Rev. Fred. I think that there are somewhere between fifty and one hundred people in the church, depending on how frequently you have to attend to qualify as part of the church. Many of them are related to Fred Phelps through blood or marriage, but not all of them. ---
**Author:** ![SmithCommaJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@SmithCommaJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmithCommaJohn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/23 "2010-11-17T01:18:16Z")
> [@Ennui](#): > > The owner of any buisness refusing the Phelpsites service would be wise to frame their objections in terms of their anti-military activities. Mr.Phelps was an attorney (now disbarred) and his daughter Shirley presently is one. I have no doubt that they’d enjoy bringing suit against anyone who pissed them off if they had anything more than a completely baseless complaint against them. And from the transcript of oral arguments in Snyder v. Phelps, she’s a pretty competent lawyer, despite holding views that would be funny if they weren’t so appalling. She seems to be perfectly capable of turning off the crazy, when necessary. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/24 "2010-11-17T02:17:08Z")
Why, sure, Mr. Phelps., I’d be glad to help you out. We have some _fabulous_ deals on Bridgestones this week, and it even includes\* free mounting of the rear\* … tires! We’re famous for giving the best rim jobs in the region! ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/25 "2010-11-17T03:31:42Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Why, sure, Mr. Phelps., I’d be glad to help you out. We have some _fabulous_ deals on Bridgestones this week, and it even includes\* free mounting of the rear\* … tires! We’re famous for giving the best rim jobs in the region! Just bend on over and read to me those little ol’ numbers on that tire. Oh, you do work out, don’t you. Now the other one, that’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/26 "2010-11-17T03:42:04Z")
“Yes in-deed, I’ve got a great deal on some Firestone 7-2-1 radials here, only slightly used…took 'em off a Ford Pinto, if I remember.” ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/27 "2010-11-17T03:47:49Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > If there is a “Karl Rove” of the gay community, he/she has to be the impetus behind the Westboro Baptist Church. No group has done more to raise the ire of reasonable minded people against those that are homophobic and enhance the cause of gay rights. I’m absolutely convinced that Fred Phelps, like so many other conservatives, is indeed a closet homosexual. Unfortunately, I doubt he’ll ever get busted, because he’s such a dog-faced asshole that no man on this planet wants to fuck him. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/28 "2010-11-17T22:46:00Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Which raises the issue - wouldn’t the business be discriminating against Phelps & Co. based on their religion? They maintain that God has condemned the United States because of tolerance of gays, and that their funeral protests are the way they get that religious message out. If a business refused to serve them because of the owner’s repugnance of the funeral protests, couldn’t it be argued that the refusal is based on the Phelps & Co’s religious activities, and hence a breach of the civil rights law? > > I have no idea what the answer is, and would be curious to hear if there’s any case-law that includes exercise of religious beliefs and religious expression in the protection of the civil rights act. When I worked for a bit in state government I received a few trainings on civil rights. You’re entitled to protection of your religious beliefs, and the employer wasn’t allowed to dismiss me just because of the religion to which I adhered. However, there was no protection for my behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/29 "2010-11-17T23:59:15Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > I’m absolutely convinced that Fred Phelps, like so many other conservatives, is indeed a closet homosexual. Unfortunately, I doubt he’ll ever get busted, because he’s such a dog-faced asshole that no man on this planet wants to fuck him. I don’t think so. He’s a for-real sadist, who enjoys causing suffering and misery. People don’t understand the purpose of the picketing. It has nothing to do with the people being picketed, and everything to do with isolating people in the church/family/cult. Why do you think they started picketing military funerals instead of gay funerals? Because Phelps wants to isolate his clan from everyone else on the planet, including other hyperfundamentalist wackos. This way they have no friends outside the church, and that means the kids can’t leave the church without leaving behind every human tie. If you’re a kid born into the church, the pickets demonstrate to you that every human being on the planet hates and despises you. The only ones who care are those already in the church. And this demonstrates to you that your church is right–you’re the only ones who will be saved in a damned world. The purpose of the picketing isn’t to change the world, it’s to make the world hate the church. It would take extraordinary internal resources for a kid to leave this church, because to leave the church means you’re excommunicated and disowned and considered dead and damned to hellfire. And the purpose is to feed the ego of Fred Phelps and to provide him with targets for his sadism. If you’re interested, check out Louis Theroux’s documentary about them: [The Most Hated Family in America - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Hated_Family_in_America) ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/30 "2010-11-18T04:57:31Z")
The business owner doesn’t need to offer a reason for denying anyone service - and that would often be for the best - no? Or is that not so? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/31 "2010-11-18T05:28:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > When I worked for a bit in state government I received a few trainings on civil rights. You’re entitled to protection of your religious beliefs, and the employer wasn’t allowed to dismiss me just because of the religion to which I adhered. > > However, there was no protection for my behaviors. What if I deny services to anyone who attends a Roman Catholic mass on Sundays? is that targeting religion or behaviour? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/32 "2010-11-18T16:24:11Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > I’m absolutely convinced that Fred Phelps, like so many other conservatives, is indeed a closet homosexual. Unfortunately, I doubt he’ll ever get busted, because he’s such a dog-faced asshole that no man on this planet wants to fuck him. Whatever Phelps might be, he isn’t a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/33 "2010-11-18T17:29:18Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Whatever Phelps might be, he isn’t a conservative. In the same way that a Marxist isn’t a liberal. It’s to a much further extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/34 "2010-11-18T18:08:20Z")
That is true as far as Marxism goes, but the fact of the matter is that Phelps for years was identified as a Democrat - he even maintains his Democratic party registration today as a thumb in the eye of the party. He and his family supported Al Gore in several races, and his law firm apparently did some civil-rights work some years ago. Now, I have said before that nothing of this history should make Democrats or liberals embarrassed - since Phelps is clearly pretty far out of the mainstream on whatever side you can imagine. But he never was any kind of political conservative, from the looks of it. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/35 "2010-11-19T15:43:48Z")
I personally hope your business is as a **process server** , and that you swallow your pride and serve him cheerfully every chance you get. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/36 "2010-11-19T15:47:17Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I personally hope your business is as a **process server** , and that you swallow your pride and serve him cheerfully every chance you get. Heh. I used to work as a process server – it’s the only job on the planet where it’s actually more fun to serve assholes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/37 "2010-11-20T01:55:39Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What if I deny services to anyone who attends a Roman Catholic mass on Sundays? is that targeting religion or behaviour? That would be targeting both? In my situation the behavior I was discussing was _at work_, meaning I could be fired if I tried to hold mass in the hallway where non-Catholics would be exposed to it. However being someone’s employer you have a much closer and much more legally defined relationship than just being a business owner that someone wants to frequent. I don’t believe there are any protections whatsoever that would _prevent_ a business owner from kicking you out of his business based on your _actions_. No matter where your actions occurred, or even _if_ they occurred. The government is loathe to get deep into a business’s choice on how it runs its business and how it handles customers. Government is comfortable getting a bit further into a business’s relationship with its employees, because that is a tighter relationship, one in which the employee is very dependent on the employer. It is also a relationship that if ended, has much more serious consequences than a customer/business relationship. I’ve not seen any cases in which a business serving the public is prohibited from refusing service with the exception of not being allowed to deny service to people _solely because of their membership in a protected class_. Edited to add: As an example of being able to bar people based on actions they _allegedly_ committed elsewhere, a prominent restaurateur kicked O.J. Simpson out of one of his restaurants because of his belief that O.J. murdered his ex-wife and Ron Goldman. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785/38 "2010-11-20T20:58:07Z")
I think I’d say to him “Rev, you might want to voluntarily go somewhere else. I’m suddenly having a really bad day, and I might just forget to tighten your lugnuts, or accidentally nick the brake line, or otherwise make a potentially-fatal mistake. So you might want to go down the road to a tire mechanic who’s having a better day.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-my-business-legally-refuse-to-serve-fred-phelps/560785.md?page=1)