# Can national patriotism be accurately measured? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 15, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833 "2023-02-15T14:55:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/1 "2023-02-15T14:55:43Z")
If so, what are the most patriotic countries? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/2 "2023-02-15T14:58:34Z")
People have tried to measure it and the US is usually at the top of such lists. Here is one: [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-patriotic-countries](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-patriotic-countries) Here is another: > **[RANKED: How patriotic 19 world-leading economies are](https://www.businessinsider.com/yougov-19-most-patriotic-countries-in-the-world-2016-11#1-united-states-19)** > > Donald Trump won the US presidential election after pledging to 'Make America Great Again' — how many Americans think their country is already great? US is #1 on this one also, after scrolling through the others. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/3 "2023-02-15T15:06:05Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > US is #1 on this one YES! WE’RE NUMBER ONE! U-S-A! U-S-A! /s, in case that’s necessary ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/4 "2023-02-16T01:42:27Z")
It’s gotta be North Korea. The Hermit Kingdom is to be acknowledged #1 in everything, or else. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/5 "2023-02-16T01:45:49Z")
Using what definition of “patriotism”? ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/6 "2023-02-16T02:43:07Z")
Samuel Johnson’s, perhaps? > [@](#): > > Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. In which case North Korea (with its coerced “patriotism”) is probably a leader. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/7 "2023-02-16T06:53:24Z")
I went to a flag-lowering ceremony down the road from Amritsar at the Indian-Pakistani border. They’ve turned this into a major ritual, to the point where on the Indian side they were building a giant amphitheater. Huge crowds gathered, danced, sang songs, etc. - apparently also to show up the smaller crowd on the Pakistani side. I suppose having a major rival, and right next door in a populated area, probably helps encourage love of one’s own country. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/8 "2023-02-16T18:09:16Z")
Anecdotally: I’ve been to many countries, and IMO the most “patriotic” is Switzerland. It’s the only country I’ve ever been to where practically every building has the national flag displayed. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/9 "2023-02-16T22:30:15Z")
Sticking flags up everywhere is a poor proxy for measuring patriotism. The American craze for sticking stars and stripes flags all over the place makes many people of other nations gag. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/10 "2023-02-16T23:21:20Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > The American craze for sticking stars and stripes flags all over the place makes many people of other nations gag. Other nations didn’t have to forge a sense of national identity the way the USA did. In its early years, its citizens had to learn to think of themselves as Americans rather than Virginians or Pennsylvanians. Then, so many people came here from other countries, and they had to learn to think of themselves as Americans rather than Norwegians or Italians. Anyway, that’s my crackpot theory as to how/why Americans got so enthusiastic about displaying their flag. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/11 "2023-02-16T23:29:09Z")
[Moderating] Even to the extent that objective definitions are possible, that just shifts the question to which objective definition to move. As such, I don’t think this is really a Factual Question. Moving to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2023, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/12 "2023-02-17T03:17:27Z")
I think there are some parallels in nation- and identity-building with e.g. Australia and Canada that could be explored, although there is a totally different level of weirdness of being part of the British empire at the same time. In support of your point though, the post-implosion segments of what used to be Jugoslavia are all trying to forge new national identities. In Croatia and Serbia at least you can’t leave anything flat lying around for too long without it getting a flag on it. But even then, its probably the success of the Croatian football team at the World Cup that has had the best pay-off in getting everyone back onto the project. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/13 "2023-03-04T01:31:15Z")
Let me just mention the John Prine song “Your Flag Decal Won’t Get You into Heaven Anymore,” from 1971. A version is here [John Prine - "Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore" (Live) - YouTube](https://youtu.be/OlofnxJxMIQ) ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/14 "2023-03-04T01:33:54Z")
I’m not so sure. “We have made Italy. Now we must make Italians,” said Italian statesman Massimo D’Azeglio in 1860." In 1950, my Italian MIL and FIL, both born in Canada, could not understand each other’s dialects and so only spoke English. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/15 "2023-03-04T14:02:15Z")
I’ve always wondered - is that a statement about patriotism, or a statement about scoundrels? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-national-patriotism-be-accurately-measured/979833/16 "2023-03-08T08:15:31Z")
Both, probably. But in any case “patriot” meant something rather different in Dr. Johnson’s day, closer to our idea of a democrat or a republican - someone who believed in the primacy of “the people” (however defined) rather than the existing social order of King, Church and oligarchical legislature.