# Can Nihilism Be Your Morality? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946 "2019-07-31T18:49:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/21 "2019-07-31T21:23:06Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I had thought of nihilism as a rejection of all morals, values, and meaning, while some other term (existentialism?) would apply to someone who constructs their own values and meaning. But I don’t know how well that matches the way professional philosophers use the terms. The distinction is blurry and it depends on who you ask. There are primers available online at the [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy](https://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/) or [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism), est. 20-30 minute reads each with summaries and a table of contents at the top. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/22 "2019-07-31T21:29:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’ll call you **begbert2** or just **begbert** , since I haven’t seen **begbert1** around lately to object. 😃 You know, I occasionally feel the desire to get snippy about this - it’s not like the **2** is silent. But then I remember that I’ve called **Half Man Half Wit HMHW** , and thus I _really_ have no leg to stand on. So yeah. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I disagree. People can (and do) decide to follow or not follow instructions. They they have devised a moral system that is comprised of the statement “Obey that guy.” That’s the moral. The instructions, though, aren’t morals; they’re not even constant. One minute you’re told you shall not kill, the next you’re told it’s inquisition time. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/23 "2019-07-31T21:38:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > They they have devised a moral system that is comprised of the statement “Obey that guy.” That’s the moral. The instructions, though, aren’t morals; they’re not even constant. One minute you’re told you shall not kill, the next you’re told it’s inquisition time. It’s still a system of morals. There is no rule saying morals have to be constant or absolutist, and if there is, that’s just your opinion. Besides, there are plenty of apologetics for any apparent contradiction, and some of them will even say things like “Max, if you can convince me that there is a contradiction, I will renounce my faith”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/24 "2019-07-31T21:49:43Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s still a system of morals. There is no rule saying morals have to be constant or absolutist, and if there is, that’s just your opinion. Besides, there are plenty of apologetics for any apparent contradiction, and some of them will even say things like “Max, if you can convince me that there is a contradiction, I will renounce my faith”. > > ~Max A system of morals has to be constant, or it _isn’t_ an ethos. And words mean exactly what I say they mean. Humpty had the right of it. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/25 "2019-07-31T22:24:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > A system of morals has to be constant, or it _isn’t_ an ethos. As if a system of morals must build an ethos? Morals must be logically _consistent_, by which I mean there can be no conflicting morals at any one time; for the purpose of morals is to guide decisions, and conflicting instructions make for a poor guide. A system of morals need not be constant or consistent over time. It is perfectly acceptable for an act to be moral one day and immoral the next, or in some situations but not others, so long as it is never both moral _and_ immoral at the same time in the same situation. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/26 "2019-07-31T23:06:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > As if a system of morals must build an ethos? Morals must be logically _consistent_, by which I mean there can be no conflicting morals at any one time; for the purpose of morals is to guide decisions, and conflicting instructions make for a poor guide. A system of morals need not be constant or consistent over time. It is perfectly acceptable for an act to be moral one day and immoral the next, or in some situations but not others, so long as it is never both moral _and_ immoral at the same time in the same situation. > > ~Max Different situations are different acts - presuming your morals shalt not be defined as absolutes. And seriously, I think this is getting pretty far afield. We aren’t even talking about nihilistic morality at all now, are we? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/27 "2019-08-01T01:27:36Z")
Religious-based morality: It is bad to lie, cheat, or steal because doing these things causes harm to one’s spirit/soul or relationship with the high power(s). So that’s why I am going to avoid doing these things. Conventional secular morality: It is bad to lie, cheat, or steal because doing these things causes harm to one’s community. So that’s why I am going to avoid doing these things. Nihilistic morality: It is a waste of time to tell people what not to do because it’s all bullshit in the end anyway. So that’s why I am going to avoid doing this. I don’t think the typical nihilist believes everything is bullshit in equal measure. Like, I’m gonna guess that the typical nihilist doesn’t think drinking a glass of water in response to thirst is just as pointless as reciting the books of the Bible backwards while standing on one’s head. So a rudimentary nihilistic code of conduct might be “If you’ve got to do something, do things that minimize or prevent immediate suffering. Life is easier without suffering. But don’t worry about all the other shit people tell you to do or not do cuz everything is bullshit in the end.” There are people who are proudly apolitical. They avoid taking sides in political discussions. They befriend everyone regardless of political persuasion and negatively judge those who discriminate along political lines, no matter what those lines are. They are convinced that voting doesn’t do a damn thing and neither does protesting in the street over injustices. I would argue these so-called apolitical people are actually governed by a political framework of some type since not taking sides is functional endorsement of the status quo. “I’m not going to worry my beautiful mind over climate change/racism/poverty/abortion/gun violence because whatever will happen will happen!” is just as bit a political statement as “Everyone should care about climate change/racism/poverty/abortion/gun violence because we can effect positive change if we all care!” Someone who claims to have no moral system, but who conducts themselves no differently than anyone else, is fooling themselves. Their moral system may lack a fancy ideological namebrand, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t operating under a program that aides them in decision-making and value judgments. “I’m not going judge that guy for doing bad things because I don’t believe that anything can be objectively judged as bad” is every bit a moral statement as “That bad guy does bad things like the Baddy McBaddington he is and I’m going to keep judging him until he changes!” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/28 "2019-08-01T09:29:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Existential nihilism is a form of nihilism, but it is not a form of nihilism-the-rejection-of-all-morals. Existential nihilism, depending on who you ask, might mean that value and morality are human constructs - made up. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, or that they are necessarily false or to be rejected. Some existential nihilists are very chill people who see it as a “to each his own” philosophy. > > ~Max That’d be me. I strongly reject the notion that there are immanent or absolute moral “goods” or codes (even so called “universal taboos” are anything but - incest and cannibalism are usually put forward as items that every man or civilization groks to be Bad ; but I can give you plenty of examples of human civilizations that feature either). I don’t think anything we do has any meaning beyond the subjective ; and there’s nobody to judge in the end either. It’s all stories we tell each other or tell ourselves to try and hide away from the vast, empty, meaningless void of existential despair. Good and Evil are just social, cultural constructs. But that doesn’t mean I give myself free reign to be an asshole. In fact it’s very important to me to be understanding and honest to a fault, if only out of pride at being better than other folk in some categories which I arbitrarily weigh high. And it feels nice to be nice most of the time, so that’s a bonus. And at the same time, well, I also have to live with the fact that life’s just a ride, nothing ultimately matters and nobody knows the rules and the points are made-up. Some days it’s hard, some days it isn’t. Patton Oswalt’s late wife’s motto applies : “Life’s chaos, it’s cruel ; be kind.” Morals-wise, I seen worse codes demanded from atop higher horses. ---
**Author:** ![road\_lobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@road\_lobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/road_lobo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/29 "2019-08-01T09:39:17Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I did post a comment on a thread or two, that basically said, choosing to live with nihilism as your morality is like an atheist claiming atheism is his religion. Nihilism is the repudiation of all morality, just like atheism is the repudiation of all religion. But I seem to rarely get a reply to my post. Or if I get one, it just seems vague and to add nothing more to what was already said. Atheism is not repudiation of all religion. Even antitheism is not repudiation of all religion. > [@https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligion](#): > > Antireligion is opposition to religion of any kind.[1][2][3] It involves opposition to organized religion, religious practices or religious institutions. The term antireligion has also been used to describe opposition to specific forms of supernatural worship or practice, whether organized or not. Opposition to religion also goes beyond the misotheistic spectrum. As such, antireligion is distinct from deity-specific positions such as atheism (the lack of belief in deities) and antitheism (an opposition to belief in deities); although “antireligionists” may also be atheists or antitheists. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/30 "2019-08-01T14:10:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Patton Oswalt’s late wife’s motto applies : “Life’s chaos, it’s cruel ; be kind.” > Morals-wise, I seen worse codes demanded from atop higher horses. The problem with nihilistic morality is that you haven’t. There are no better or worse moral codes from that point of view. High horse, low horse, no horse - there is no more reason to be kind than there is to be cruel. And “I just feel like that” is also completely arbitrary and has no meaning. If nihilism is true, then all moral codes are meaningless, including nihilistic ones. And all moral statements, without exception, have the same moral weight as a sneeze or an itch. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/31 "2019-08-01T14:27:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The problem with nihilistic morality is that you haven’t. > > There are no better or worse moral codes from that point of view. High horse, low horse, no horse - there is no more reason to be kind than there is to be cruel. And “I just feel like that” is also completely arbitrary and has no meaning. > > If nihilism is true, then all moral codes are meaningless, including nihilistic ones. And all moral statements, without exception, have the same moral weight as a sneeze or an itch. It’s sort of a catch-22, but this is already the case… if you decide it is. Or it isn’t, if you decide it isn’t. Morality is a human-created concept. I believe in right and wrong, but these are human-created concepts, and I choose to believe in them and act within them because I think the world is better if we behave within these human-created constraints (but only my version of right and wrong, of course ;)). Lots of folks believe these are not human-created concepts, but rather come from a higher power or powers, but that’s also just another decision these humans are making. Moral codes have the exact weight placed on them by humans. Same goes with meaning – the meaning we find in life is up to us, even if we decide that meaning comes from elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/32 "2019-08-01T14:32:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The problem with nihilistic morality is that you haven’t. > > There are no better or worse moral codes from that point of view. High horse, low horse, no horse - there is no more reason to be kind than there is to be cruel. And “I just feel like that” is also completely arbitrary and has no meaning. > > If nihilism is true, then all moral codes are meaningless, including nihilistic ones. And all moral statements, without exception, have the same moral weight as a sneeze or an itch. All of this wrong. Moral codes have meaning to the people who hold them. Otherwise, they would hold different moral codes. For instance, “there is no more reason to be kind than there is to be cruel” is ridiculous. Being kind usually won’t get you punched in the face. Being cruel may make people want to punch you in the face. Being kind will cause others to treat you kindly. Being kind makes me feel better than being cruel makes me feel. Being cruel will cause others to shun you. There’s a bunch of reasons right there, with plenty of meaning. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/33 "2019-08-01T14:37:26Z")
Morality is simply an individual’s code of conduct that they can justify through some reasoning process or ideology. A nihilist operates by a code–one that they can justify with reasons. Thus, they have a morality system. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/34 "2019-08-01T14:43:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > All of this wrong. Moral codes have meaning to the people who hold them. Otherwise, they would hold different moral codes. The different moral codes are no more meaningful than the original ones. > [@](#): > > For instance, “there is no more reason to be kind than there is to be cruel” is ridiculous. Being kind usually won’t get you punched in the face. Being cruel may make people want to punch you in the face. Being kind will cause others to treat you kindly. Being kind makes me feel better than being cruel makes me feel. Being cruel will cause others to shun you. There’s a bunch of reasons right there, with plenty of meaning. Those reasons have exactly the same weight and meaning as “God wants us to be kind to each other”. They are based on unproven and unproveable axioms. Thus, according to nihilism, they are equal. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/35 "2019-08-01T15:19:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > All of this wrong. Moral codes have meaning to the people who hold them. Otherwise, they would hold different moral codes. > > For instance, “there is no more reason to be kind than there is to be cruel” is ridiculous. Being kind usually won’t get you punched in the face. Being cruel may make people want to punch you in the face. Being kind will cause others to treat you kindly. Being kind makes me feel better than being cruel makes me feel. Being cruel will cause others to shun you. There’s a bunch of reasons right there, with plenty of meaning. If you’re a true nihilist, having people punch you in the face is not intrinsically less desirable than having them treat you kindly. In fact, something being desirable, if it can be construed in the first place, is not … never mind, my head hurts. Theoretical perspectives that assert the lack of meaning or value always make my head hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/36 "2019-08-01T15:23:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The different moral codes are no more meaningful than the original ones. > Those reasons have exactly the same weight and meaning as “God wants us to be kind to each other”. They are based on unproven and unproveable axioms. Thus, according to nihilism, they are equal. > > Regards, > Shodan Wrong. They are based on easily tested and provable axioms. I enjoy getting punched in the face a lot less than I enjoy not being punched in the face: axiom tested and proved. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/37 "2019-08-01T15:31:28Z")
So, punching a nihilist in the face immediately after they self identify as nihilists is morally identical to simply ignoring everything about them? (From their ethical perspective, of course, your own moral values might say otherwise but a true nihilist would find nothing objectionable about either.) Would committed nihilists find efforts to exterminate their own number ethically undesirable? It’s all about the level of commitment, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/38 "2019-08-01T15:40:00Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > When people say, for example, the Nazi Holocaust was horrible, they are not just emoting or expressing their private feelings. They are saying that the Nazi Holocaust was horrible, because of the pain experienced. > > Pain is terrible. Pain is horrible. And I don’t know to what degree it is objective. But you have to admit, it is universally felt the same way. Tell that to Eichmann or Jeckeln or any of the other human filth who felt \*nothing \*for their victims. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/39 "2019-08-01T15:44:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I enjoy getting punched in the face a lot less than I enjoy not being punched in the face: axiom tested and proved. You haven’t established a reason for valuing your enjoyment over your lack thereof, though. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946/40 "2019-08-01T16:06:24Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > You haven’t established a reason for valuing your enjoyment over your lack thereof, though. “Enjoy” is the reason; there is no need for absurd reduction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-nihilism-be-your-morality/837946.md?page=3)