# Can non-citizens vote? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 29, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193 "2007-11-29T17:15:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@Nman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/1 "2007-11-29T17:15:39Z")
I’m sure this was asked before so if anyone has a link to a thread that’d be cool Anyway this discussion came up at work, and I was with a group of employees and all 15 of them, they are LEGAL immigrants in this country legally, said they vote for president. I said “I don’t think you can,” everyone one of them said “Sure we can, we registered.” So I bet them and lost a dollar a piece when they all produced voter registration cards? I thought that was a key point in becoming a citizen so you can vote for president. So either I’m wrong, no one checked their immigration status or they are all up to something 🙂 And also what determains who can vote for President? I mean besides the amendments for women, and 18 year olds and the poll tax? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/2 "2007-11-29T17:41:01Z")
It appears to be a violation of federal law for a non-citizen to vote for President (or other federal office). [18 U.S.C. 611](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC611): > [@](#): > > Sec. 611. Voting by aliens > > ``` > (a) It shall be unlawful for any alien to vote in any election held > > ``` > > solely or in part for the purpose of electing a candidate for the office > of President, Vice President, Presidential elector, Member of the > Senate, Member of the House of Representatives, Delegate from the > District of Columbia, or Resident Commissioner, unless– > (1) the election is held partly for some other purpose; > (2) aliens are authorized to vote for such other purpose under a > State constitution or statute or a local ordinance; and > (3) voting for such other purpose is conducted independently of > voting for a candidate for such Federal offices, in such a manner > that an alien has the opportunity to vote for such other purpose, > but not an opportunity to vote for a candidate for any one or more > of such Federal offices. > > ``` > (b) Any person who violates this section shall be fined under this > > ``` > > title, imprisoned not more than one year, or both. > (c) Subsection (a) does not apply to an alien if– > (1) each natural parent of the alien (or, in the case of an > adopted alien, each adoptive parent of the alien) is or was a > citizen (whether by birth or naturalization); > (2) the alien permanently resided in the United States prior to > attaining the age of 16; and > (3) the alien reasonably believed at the time of voting in > violation of such subsection that he or she was a citizen of the > United States. Voting in local or state elections is left up to the localities or states in question, and there’s an out for aliens who, in certain circumstances, mistakenly but reasonably believe they’re really citizens. Your co-workers are permanent residents (with “green cards”), not naturalized citizens, right? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/3 "2007-11-29T17:48:22Z")
Once upon a time, there was no such federal law, and the states alone decided who could vote in elections — for local, state or federal offices. In the 19th century, most states allowed an alien to vote if he had filed his “first papers” (a declaration of intention) for citizenship. That he never followed up by becoming a citizen was immaterial, he could continue voting for the rest of his life. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/4 "2007-11-29T18:01:53Z")
i don’t want to hijack this into a political thread, but the fact is that the Motor Voter act of 1993 made this kind of thing much easier by linking voter registration to drivers licenses. And you do not need to be a citizen to be a licensed driver. The Justice Department found in their investigation that nine of the 9/11 hijackers were registered voters. That ought to illustrate the problem. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/5 "2007-11-29T18:02:29Z")
[QUOTE=Nman] I’m sure this was asked before so if anyone has a link to a thread that’d be cool Anyway this discussion came up at work, and I was with a group of employees and all 15 of them, they are LEGAL immigrants in this country legally, said they vote for president. I said “I don’t think you can,” everyone one of them said “Sure we can, we registered.” So I bet them and lost a dollar a piece when they all produced voter registration cards? I thought that was a key point in becoming a citizen so you can vote for president. So either I’m wrong, no one checked their immigration status or they are all up to something 🙂 And also what determains who can vote for President? I mean besides the amendments for women, and 18 year olds and the poll tax? [/QUOTE] I think you are asking two questions, 1. Can non-citizens vote, and 2. Can they vote legally. The answer to question 1 is yes, if they can get registered then they can vote, and depending on how they look, sound, and where they are they may or may not be asked to produce proof of citizenship. For example, a good friend of mine in the US came over as a teenager from Germany, but never bothered to become a naturalized citizen. She looks and sounds American, and is registered to vote in New York. The answer to question 2, is no. Only citizens are allowed to vote in US elections. The good news is that becoming a citizen is not that hard. I’ve started the process for myself, and it looks like in about 3 years I will be eligible to apply. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/6 "2007-11-29T18:07:37Z")
It’s allowed in some countries, as I understand. Where are you? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/7 "2007-11-29T18:44:20Z")
Because **Nman** mentioned “amendments for women, and 18 year olds and the poll tax”, I’m guessing he is in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![ArmenE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ArmenE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArmenE)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/8 "2007-11-29T20:26:49Z")
I am a naturalized US citizen. I could not vote before I became a citizen, and now I can. I was recently (a few weeks ago) present at my mother’s naturalization ceremony. One of the big points made was that these new citizens can now vote - voter registration cards were given out at the ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/9 "2007-11-29T20:38:47Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] i don’t want to hijack this into a political thread, but the fact is that the Motor Voter act of 1993 made this kind of thing much easier by linking voter registration to drivers licenses. And you do not need to be a citizen to be a licensed driver. [/QUOTE] [But you do have to establish legal presence…](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#BDLP) [QUOTE=California DMV] State law requires every applicant for an original California identification (ID) card and driver license to show verification of birth date and proof of legal presence within the United States to help safeguard the accuracy and integrity of departmental documents. [/QUOTE] Want to try another canard? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/10 "2007-11-29T20:48:59Z")
No canard at all. Legal presence isn’t the same thing as citizenship, is it? Explain to me how those hijackers were registered to vote. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/11 "2007-11-29T20:55:05Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Want to try another canard? [/QUOTE] What canard was tried in the first place? Your own cite confirms that non-citizens, including legal aliens, can easily acquire state identification documents. Voter registrars do not typically validate one’s citizenship if you can provide ID. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/12 "2007-11-29T21:51:11Z")
[QUOTE=lalenin] The good news is that becoming a citizen is not that hard. I’ve started the process for myself, and it looks like in about 3 years I will be eligible to apply. [/QUOTE] We’ll be proud to welcome you. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/13 "2007-11-29T22:06:41Z")
Not only is it easy for non-citizens to vote, it is damn hard to prosecute them. My ex-wife was a Canadian here legally with a green card. She registered to vote, and voted in all elections, including for president. During a particularly nasty divorce, I dropped a dime on her to the voter fraud unit of the California Secretary of State’s office. A special investigator compiled a case against her, including the records of her immigrant status and her absentee ballots. He submitted the case to the Los Angeles County District Attorney, who declined to prosecute, even though all the investigation had been done for him. I later read an article in the Wall Street Journal regarding voter fraud that stated that LA county had never prosecuted a single voter fraud case. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/14 "2007-11-29T22:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] No canard at all. Legal presence isn’t the same thing as citizenship, is it? Explain to me how those hijackers were registered to vote. [/QUOTE] Exactly. Getting a drivers license does not require citizenship. It does not even require permanent residence. I am only here on a temporary work visa (although I have a permanent residence application in the works) and I quite happily have a Georgia drivers license. I’m really surprised however that one can register to vote as a non-citizen without knowingly committing fraud. Surely the forms at the very least ask you to check a box indicating whether you are a citizen or not? Did these guys genuinely believe that they were legally entitled to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/15 "2007-11-29T22:08:58Z")
At the present time, none of the 50 American states allow non-citizens to legally vote in either state or federal elections. (States determine suffrage for federal elections, subject to constitutional constraints that they may not discriminate on grounds of race, sex, failure to pay taxes, age if over 18, etc.) However, some states delegate authority for determining suffrage in local elections to local governments. Maryland is one state which does so, and several small Maryland cities, of which the largest and best-known is Takoma Park, allow non-citizens to vote in local elections. A few cities allow non-citizens to vote in school board elections. Chicago allows non-citizen parents to vote and even (I believe) serve on “school councils”, which act as parental school oversight boards. A state could still enfranchise non-citizens for state and federal elections if it wished to. None has done so since the 1920’s. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/16 "2007-11-30T00:22:42Z")
[QUOTE=Driver8] I’m really surprised however that one can register to vote as a non-citizen without knowingly committing fraud. Surely the forms at the very least ask you to check a box indicating whether you are a citizen or not? Did these guys genuinely believe that they were legally entitled to vote? [/QUOTE] The New York [voter registration form](http://www.vote.nyc.ny.us/pdf/forms/boe/voterreg/voterregenglish.pdf) (PDF) asks if you are a citizen in the very first question. I imagine most states’ forms are similar. ETA: The helpful instructions also state “If you answer NO [to the citizenship question], do not complete this form.” Your tax dollars at work, protecting politically-minded immigrants from wasting their time with unnecessary paperwork! ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/17 "2007-11-30T05:46:19Z")
[QUOTE=Freddy the Pig] A state could still enfranchise non-citizens for state and federal elections if it wished to. [/quote] As above, it’s a violation of federal law for non-citizens to vote in federal elections. As far as I know, a state could still enfranchise non-citizens for state or local elections. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-non-citizens-vote/428193/18 "2007-11-30T12:52:56Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner] As above, it’s a violation of federal law for non-citizens to vote in federal elections. As far as I know, a state could still enfranchise non-citizens for state or local elections. [/QUOTE] Every couple of years, there’s something in the paper about permanent residents in New York City wanting to vote in local elections. [Push Is On to Give Legal Immigrants A Vote in the City](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E00E1DA1438F93BA35757C0A9629C8B63): > [@The New York Times](#): > > At first glance, it may seem a long shot in an era of orange alerts and stepped-up border patrols. But quietly and carefully, elected officials, labor unions and community groups are starting to push the notion of allowing legal immigrants who are not United States citizens to vote in New York City elections. > > Supporters say it is not an outlandish proposition. They point out that even without citizenship, legal immigrants pay taxes, send their children to public schools and serve in the military. Noncitizens in many states were allowed to vote in local, state and even Congressional elections as recently as the 1920’s. Until New York City moved to abolish its school boards two years ago, all residents had the right to vote for and serve on them. And although a proposal to open city elections to immigrants was raised 10 years ago without success, some people believe that the time may now be right.