# Can Obama at least be honest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102 "2009-04-14T19:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/101 "2009-04-16T02:45:29Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Can we save our outrage for something that matters? This statement of Gibb’s doesn’t change or set any sort of policy, nor is it indicative of a predilection for this administration to lie. It shows that the press secretary is willing to blatantly misrepresent the facts in order to save the President from embarassment – even teeny amounts of embarassment. It also shows that the President isn’t about to stop him from doing so. Personally, I think that White House officials should be willing to say “We were wrong” instead of shielding themselves from embarassment. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/102 "2009-04-16T02:50:18Z")
It is not a given fact that he intended to bow. I think he was just leaning over. Not that I would care if he did bow. Accusations of dishonesty about it are predicated on an assumed stipulation that he intended to bow. I say prove that first. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/103 "2009-04-16T02:59:51Z")
Maybe he was just leaning close to whisper something Islamic. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/104 "2009-04-16T03:43:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It is not a given fact that he intended to bow. I think he was just leaning over. Not that I would care if he did bow. Accusations of dishonesty about it are predicated on an assumed stipulation that he intended to bow. I say prove that first. If Gibbs had said that Obama did not _intend_ to bow, then your objection might have merit (and even that’s a stretch, IMO). That’s not what he said, though. He specifically said that Obama did NOT bow. Here is the relevant exchange between him and CNN reporter Dan Lothian. LOTHIAN: Did he bow or didn’t he? GIBBS: No. But I think this meeting was like a week ago, right? No discussion of intent there, **Diogenes**. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/105 "2009-04-16T04:07:28Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Personally, I think that White House officials should be willing to say “We were wrong” instead of shielding themselves from embarassment. Wasn’t this amply demonstrated during that nomination kerfuffle when Obama himself admitted his error? ---
**Author:** ![InkBlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5e925/32.png) [@InkBlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InkBlot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/106 "2009-04-16T04:14:36Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > If Gibbs had said that Obama did not _intend_ to bow, then your objection might have merit (and even that’s a stretch, IMO). > > That’s not what he said, though. He specifically said that Obama did NOT bow. Here is the relevant exchange between him and CNN reporter Dan Lothian. > > LOTHIAN: Did he bow or didn’t he? > > GIBBS: No. But I think this meeting was like a week ago, right? > No discussion of intent there, **Diogenes**. Or, you can look at the full transcript instead of hacking it up… Q And then one unrelated question. When the President met with King Abdullah, there was something that took place that I believe the White House explained as just the President being taller than the King. We took a look at the video, and it does appear that the President actually bowed to King Abdullah. Did he bow or didn’t he? MR. GIBBS: Well, I think he bent over with both – to shake with both hands to shake his hand. So I don’t – Q It appears to show one hand, that he was just – MR. GIBBS: Well, I – Q Did he bow or didn’t he? MR. GIBBS: No. But I think this meeting was like a week ago, right? Q That’s right, but this is something that a lot of people are still talking about today. MR. GIBBS: I can only imagine it is of great cause and concern for many people struggling with the economy. (Laughter.) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/107 "2009-04-16T04:18:28Z")
None of which changes the fact that Gibbs specifically declared that Obama did NOT bow. Far from “hacking it up,” I simply focused on the part that was relevant to this discussion. Gibbs was dismissive toward the end of your quoted section, but his dismissiveness is irrelevant to the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/108 "2009-04-16T04:20:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Wasn’t this amply demonstrated during that nomination kerfuffle when Obama himself admitted his error? It demonstrates that Obama is sometimes willing to admit error, and sometimes willing to let his official representatives lie in order to shield him from embarassment. The former is laudable, but it does not obliterate the latter. ---
**Author:** ![InkBlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5e925/32.png) [@InkBlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InkBlot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/109 "2009-04-16T04:31:41Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > None of which changes the fact that Gibbs specifically declared that Obama did NOT bow. Far from “hacking it up,” I simply focused on the part that was relevant to this discussion. > > Gibbs was dismissive toward the end of your quoted section, but his dismissiveness is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Oh, yeah. Very specific. Firm declaration. Truly confident in his answer, not a hint of uncertainty. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/110 "2009-04-16T04:42:55Z")
Too soon to call for a special prosecutor, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/111 "2009-04-16T04:45:25Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > “Is that gum in your mouth?” > > “No.” > > “Well, I just saw it, so here’s a detention for lying. It’s not about the gum, it’s about the lying.” Perhaps it is less about gum or deceit and more about power and control. When you know the question will probably lead to a dishonest response, what is gained by putting the individual in a position of lying? Why ask a person a question when you already know the answer? It might be to embarrass him. Give the kid detention for gum. Maybe the kid lies about taking a cookie because he knows the punishment will be severe. This outrage about the President isn’t really about honesty. I never see much concern about honesty applied to anything or anyone else. The reaction is absurd when you consider the level of dishonesty in every other aspect of American life that people are willing to accept and even defend. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/112 "2009-04-16T05:00:38Z")
So it’s not a big deal and Obama actually stands for change we can kind of believe in? That wasn’t what he was saying before the election. He ran on the promise of “change we could believe in”. How are we supposed to believe in it if it’s not really about honesty? The reason he’s being held to a higher standard here is that he promised to perform to that higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/113 "2009-04-16T05:06:39Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > None of which changes the fact that Gibbs specifically declared that Obama did NOT bow. Far from “hacking it up,” I simply focused on the part that was relevant to this discussion. > > Gibbs was dismissive toward the end of your quoted section, but his dismissiveness is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If he didn’t _intend_ to bow, then he _didn’t_ bow. Not all leaning over is bowing. The intent is everything. If my boxers get a little bound up and I bend at the knees slightly to shake things loose, that doesn’t mean I’m trying to courtsey. There are all kinds of gestures and body movements which can be taken to have meanings and signifiers that they don’t have. Somebody absently scratching his nose with his middle finger is not necessarily giving someone the bird. People see what they want to see. I think it’s quite plausible that Barack Obama – a tall man, who like most tall men is accustomed to leaning over to greet people and talk to them – leaned over to talk this dude without being even thinking about the fact that it might look like he was bowing. It also sounds like Gibbs was giving his own opinion, not something that Obama had told him to say. As far as I know, Obama has said nothing about it himself. I certainly don’t believe he consciously and deliberately intended to execute a formal, ceremonial bow to signify submissiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/114 "2009-04-16T05:08:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So it’s not a big deal and Obama actually stands for change we can kind of believe in? > > That wasn’t what he was saying before the election. He ran on the promise of “change we could believe in”. How are we supposed to believe in it if it’s not really about honesty? The reason he’s being held to a higher standard here is that he promised to perform to that higher standard. What did he say that was dishonest? Please provide cites both for what he said, and how you know it was dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/115 "2009-04-16T05:11:29Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > It demonstrates that Obama is sometimes willing to admit error Heck, that alone makes him refreshing as presidents go. Whaddya want, the moon? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/116 "2009-04-16T05:13:00Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > Perhaps it is less about gum or deceit and more about power and control. When you know the question will probably lead to a dishonest response, what is gained by putting the individual in a position of lying? > Why ask a person a question when you already know the answer? It might be to embarrass him. Give the kid detention for gum. > > Maybe the kid lies about taking a cookie because he knows the punishment will be severe. > > This outrage about the President isn’t really about honesty. I never see much concern about honesty applied to anything or anyone else. The reaction is absurd when you consider the level of dishonesty in every other aspect of American life that people are willing to accept and even defend. Oh, you know for a fact, reading my mind, that this isn’t about honesty. Is your name Kreskin? I admit that there is a very defensible school of thought that you don’t give people the chance to lie to you if you know the facts. However, I don’t necessarily subscribe to that that school. I think that you give people the chance and then give a punishment for doing what is definably bad, and a reward for what is definably good. You can argue amongst yourselves, as this is an unrelated issue. I want to point out though, that my opponent here has tried to completely change the issue from its original point. I PROMISE to apply this concern for honesty to other, bigger points. You accuse me of not caring on other points either because you assume something about my character (“He’s a Right-Winger, oh noooeessss”), or you can’t imagine that someone truly values honesty and would like to see it coming from the president of the USA. ETA: I think the point has been made to anyone willing to admit that Obama is not a political GOD, and I suspect I won’t be back to this thread. You can’t convince ALL the idiots… ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/117 "2009-04-16T05:14:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, that alone makes him refreshing as presidents go. Whaddya want, the moon? In regard to honesty, YES. This just shows that you want less, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/118 "2009-04-16T05:14:44Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > Seriously, why bother lying about something so dumb? Those small transgressions against public trust chip away at our general willingness to trust on the big things. Because his press secretary probably figured that the admitting to the bow (assuming it actually was a bow) would’ve created an issue that was even more of a distraction from the real issues. Maybe he was wrong. Maybe he wasn’t. Worst possible scenario is that his spokesperson lied about something incredible trivial. Who cares? Get back to me when the (alleged) lies are about something important. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/119 "2009-04-16T05:15:27Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > None of which changes the fact that Gibbs specifically declared that Obama did NOT bow. Far from “hacking it up,” I simply focused on the part that was relevant to this discussion. > > Gibbs was dismissive toward the end of your quoted section, but his dismissiveness is irrelevant to the topic at hand. 1. Is it your contention that bending over and bowing are the same thing? 2. Could it be possible that others might think they might mean two _different_ things? 3. Shouldn’t you be moving on to Puppygate? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102/120 "2009-04-16T05:16:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What did he say that was dishonest? Please provide cites both for what he said, and how you know it was dishonest. Your and Der Trihs’s opinions are so solidly in opposition to that which you know to be commonly held that I no longer regard them to be true. They vacillate across the spectrum of jerkishness in a manner which shows them to be dismissable and irrelevant. Please, pound sand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-at-least-be-honest/493102.md?page=7)