# Can Obama Close Guantanamo Prison? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846 "2008-11-21T16:20:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/21 "2008-11-21T18:06:57Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > That’s just ridiculous. There can be a closed court or something similar set up to protect secrets. > . But if it is a regular criminal court, all the Jurors personal info -including their adress, where their kids go to school, their job, and so forth is 100% free and open to the Defense. If it is a real terrorist, can we force a virtually unpaid juror to take the risk that they’ll blow up his kids schoolbus to silence him? I think we need to give them speedy and fair Military Tribunals. If convicted of serious terrorist acts we should keep them at GITMO, if not they should be released or sent to another normal prison, or turned over to their home nations. My WAG is that’d mean only about 10% of the current population stil there, and all will have been convicted of Capital crimes. The big issue about Gitmo is too many have been held too long without even charges being brought. We need to put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/22 "2008-11-21T18:11:44Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, it wouldn’t be a penal colony, it would be a former penal colony, more or less. There are what, 270 or so detainees still there? Of those, many I assume have someplace to go. How many have no place to go? It wouldn’t have to be a large community we created. We could build a rum plant or something (tongue in cheek). It would be a penal colony, there’s no escaping that fact. The “colonists” would be stateless prisoners eeking out a subsistence existence. Either prove their guilt in an open courtroom or pay the price for the abuse of their human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/23 "2008-11-21T18:19:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But if it is a regular criminal court, all the Jurors personal info -including their adress, where their kids go to school, their job, and so forth is 100% free and open to the Defense. > If it is a real terrorist, can we force a virtually unpaid juror to take the risk that they’ll blow up his kids schoolbus to silence him? And the same could be said for organised criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/24 "2008-11-21T18:19:51Z")
Gitmo closing will not solve the primary problem - what do you do with (and call) enemy “soldiers” captured during military actions in foreign nations? POW Are they POWs, who can be held until the “war” is over? That would mean that we can keep Gitmo (or its equivalent) going until Afghanistan is pacified and their new government asks for them back. We can ship to Iraq any Iraqi citizens as part of the final handover / troop withdrawel. We could ship the POWs back to all nations that we have friendly diplomatic relations with, giving the Saudis their citizens as well. We can also hold war crimes trials under standard military protocol. International Criminals If we decided that they are NOT POWs, but rather criminals, then we need a trial. We have a problem in that some evidence comes from our intelligence work. Now, if the only way to convict is to give up intelligence assets, we have a problem. During the trial of the first WTC bombing I believe it was revealed that the US was tracking some through their satellilte phones. Once this was revealed we lost this intelligence asset. Maybe we decide that we do not want to compromise the intelligence, so we can not get a conviction. We can just ship them back to their home nation, or to another nation that also wishes to try them for a crime. We also might just try them for lesser crimes and go for maximum sentencing (Al Capone style prosecution). What might work is a standard release agreement where we hand people over with the stipulation that they not be tortured (and a few other requirements). However, I fully expect some of these people to be taken in, tried, and executed once they get “home.” Let me be blunt - letting these people go free in the US will not (and should not) happen. Not only is it a bad idea, but it would also be political suicide for Obama. “He let a terrorist walk the streets of America!” This entire operation has been analogous to the Iraq war. We knew what our first moves would be, but we never worked out the end-game scenario (occupation in Iraq, on-going trial / imprisonment for the Gitmo Detainees). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/25 "2008-11-21T18:20:59Z")
> [@](#): > > So when they got picked up in a war zone in Afghanistan, they were just lost? Most of them were just _home_. Just because they were in some ill-defined “war zone” (which if I’m not mistaken, encompasses the entire planet, in the ill-defined “war on terror”), doesn’t mean that they were waging war against us. And even for those who _were_ actually waging war against us, there are legal structures in place for dealing with prisoners of war, and they still have rights. > [@](#): > > That’s a great analogy between gun owners and terrorists, you should work for the SAT. Is there some difference between American gun owners and the Gitmo detainees you would like to point out to us? Or is it one of those things where if you told us, you’d have to kill us? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/26 "2008-11-21T18:23:21Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Let me be blunt - letting these people go free in the US will not (and should not) happen. Not only is it a bad idea, but it would also be political suicide for Obama. “He let a terrorist walk the streets of America!” And if Obama makes a decision on whether some people deserve human rights based on the effect it will have on his political career, then he’s scum. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/27 "2008-11-21T18:23:46Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So when they got picked up in a war zone in Afghanistan, they were just lost? > … > These people are not criminals they were captured while engaging in war against this country. Except that 1- It is not true in many cases and 2- They have a right to have their in court and state their case. The problem is that the US government will not give them a day in court because it knows full well that what would come out would be evidence that many of them are totally innocent and were sold for ransom by their enemies or they were just in the worng place at the wrong time etc. Those who were lucky enough to have the nationality of Britain or some other advanced country which pressured for their release and have been released have been considered innocent by their home countries and set free. The evidence against them was considered insufficient or tainted by torture. Guantanamo is a stain on the honor and reputation of America. It should have never had happened and it should be shut down ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/28 "2008-11-21T18:28:28Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > It would be a penal colony, there’s no escaping that fact. The “colonists” would be stateless prisoners eeking out a subsistence existence. Either prove their guilt in an open courtroom or pay the price for the abuse of their human rights. Exactly. They’re stateless, so we give them a “state.” They’d be free to stay or go. Cuba is a short swim. Haiti’s that way. Wanna stay? The banana farm is that way. Minimum wage, but a guaranteed job. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/29 "2008-11-21T18:29:34Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > And the same could be said for organised criminals. The FBI regularly holds off on arresting low level members of the mob so that they do not have to give up an intelligence source. They make the decision that a bit more in drugs, prostitution, and killing is worth the risk. The risk with terrorists is a hell of lot higher. The mob has not taken down any buildings in the US, nor have they used car bombs on US soldiers. The concern here has been shown once: [http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/05/08/ex\_detainee\_linked\_to\_iraq\_bombing/](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/05/08/ex_detainee_linked_to_iraq_bombing/) > [@](#): > > A suicide bomber in Iraq was identified yesterday as a former Taliban fighter who was held for more than three years at the US prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, before he was handed over to authorities in his native Kuwait in 2005 and subsequently released. > > The news that Abdullah Salih Al Ajmi, 29, had driven a car bomb into an Iraqi police patrol renewed the debate over the justification for holding hundreds of men the Bush administration has labeled “enemy combatants” at the controversial facility. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/30 "2008-11-21T18:32:44Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Exactly. They’re stateless, so we give them a “state.” They’d be free to stay or go. Cuba is a short swim. Haiti’s that way. Wanna stay? The banana farm is that way. Minimum wage, but a guaranteed job. You kidnap people, hold them for years without just cause, torture them, deprive them of contact with the outside world and then, if that wasn’t enough, you open the cages and tell them that they have a choice between swimming to either Haiti or Cuba or remaining where they are and taking their chances in a stateless lawless no-man’s land. Are you serious? Do you even understand the concept of human rights and human dignity? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/31 "2008-11-21T18:33:01Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > And if Obama makes a decision on whether some people deserve human rights based on the effect it will have on his political career, then he’s scum. Obama’s job is to balance the rights of People who are either POWs (which means we can hold them as long as the war is going on), or international criminals (which means we can try them or send them to their nation or origin or to the next nation that wants to try them). Americans who don’t want to be killed by terrorists released on our soil. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/32 "2008-11-21T18:33:47Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > it would also be political suicide for Obama. “He let a terrorist walk the streets of America!” Betcha Joe Lieberman would be all over that in Senate hearings. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/33 "2008-11-21T18:34:00Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The FBI regularly holds off on arresting low level members of the mob so that they do not have to give up an intelligence source. They make the decision that a bit more in drugs, prostitution, and killing is worth the risk. > > The risk with terrorists is a hell of lot higher. The mob has not taken down any buildings in the US, nor have they used car bombs on US soldiers. The concern here has been shown once: > > [http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/05/08/ex\_detainee\_linked\_to\_iraq\_bombing/](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/05/08/ex_detainee_linked_to_iraq_bombing/) I don’t know what you think you’re replying to, but it certainly wasn’t my post. You’ve quoted me completely out of context. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/34 "2008-11-21T18:35:01Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Betcha Joe Lieberman would be all over that in Senate hearings. As a prior poster said, it would give the Republicans a Willie Horton ad campaign wrapped up in a bow. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/35 "2008-11-21T18:36:16Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Obama’s job is to balance the rights of > > People who are either POWs (which means we can hold them as long as the war is going on), or international criminals (which means we can try them or send them to their nation or origin or to the next nation that wants to try them). > > Americans who don’t want to be killed by terrorists released on our soil. Like you “balance the rights” of gun-owners? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/36 "2008-11-21T18:37:03Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > I don’t know what you think you’re replying to, but it certainly wasn’t my post. You’ve quoted me completely out of context. You mentioned the difficulty of trying members of the mob. You were discussing issues around juror protection, I am also concerned with the protection of intelligence assets (which are often people, and not jsut technology). I did not quote you out of context, I took an issue that you raised an discussed other issues in that area. These cases are not as simple as you seem to be making them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/37 "2008-11-21T18:37:48Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Does this mean Obama will release them into the USA/ (witness protection program)? I would say the odds of this are close to zero because so much of the U.S. citizenry would freak the hell out. It’d be that much worse if witness relocation was involved, since that would be done on the government’s dime. I don’t know how many other options there are, but I suspect one would be found. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/38 "2008-11-21T18:39:32Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Like you “balance the rights” of gun-owners? Don’t hijack, please. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/39 "2008-11-21T18:40:02Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > You mentioned the difficulty of trying members of the mob. You were discussing issues around juror protection, I am also concerned with the protection of intelligence assets (which are often people, and not jsut technology). > > I did not quote you out of context, I took an issue that you raised an discussed other issues in that area. > > These cases are not as simple as you seem to be making them. I’m sorry, but they are. Either the inmates are humans deserving of human rights or they are not. There is no hard decision. The only thing Obama needs to decide is how low does he bow his head when he begs the world’s forgiveness for the crimes against humanity that the US has committed and hands over the Bush administration to the ICC for trial. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846/40 "2008-11-21T18:41:14Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > I’m sorry, but they are. Either the inmates are humans deserving of human rights or they are not. There is no hard decision. The only thing Obama needs to decide is how low does he bow his head when he begs the world’s forgiveness for the crimes against humanity that the US has committed and hands over the Bush administration to the ICC for trial. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-obama-close-guantanamo-prison/473846.md?page=3)