# Can Oklahoma do anything right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353 "2014-04-30T13:22:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/21 "2014-05-01T01:37:11Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Oklahoma is a very nice state to travel in, nice to just wander around, with attractive landscapes. A well-kept secret. You don’t need to live there if you don’t want to, but take the time to see its backroads. . You were a bit close to saying that the people were friendly; but, you didn’t, so you are still credible, in my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/22 "2014-05-01T04:21:30Z")
I will agree that based upon what his victim went through, the State of Oklahoma could have dismembered him a square inch at a time over an 18 month period and I would have been okay with it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/23 "2014-05-01T04:36:49Z")
Yeah, when I read how Lockett’s victim I died I figured it was strange justice the way Lockett died. What goes around comes … ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/24 "2014-05-01T05:29:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’ve noted before the idiocy of Sooners’ refusal (99%) to build basements under their homes in a state that is as tornado prone as it gets; It’s not a function of anybody refusing to purchase a house with a basement. The ground in much of Oklahoma is marbled and makes it almost impossible to build a basement that doesn’t crack into a zillion leaking pieces because of shifting. Builders have no way of guaranteeing them or they would build them. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/25 "2014-05-01T05:33:28Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Half a billion years ago, in the Cambrian era, what is now Oklahoma was the site of a triple junction rifting event. The aulacogen, the failed arm of the triple junction, underlies south central and southwest Oklahoma. Consequently there are some serious faults underneath much of central, southern and southwest Oklahoma. > > Whether these faults are _conclusively_ linked to wastewater injection wells is, I think, still up in the air. One commenter on your linked site says making this linkage is akin to stating that a black eye was caused by getting bit by a mosquito. Considering the _enormous_ forces involved in deep underground rock layers sliding by, smashing into one another, I tend to think that even this comparison is not extreme enough. I lived in Oklahoma from 1970 to 1995. How many earthquakes above 3.0 occurred in that time? How many are happening now? There is a huge number of quakes happening around where they are fracking but noooooo you can’t prove a connection. Just like there is no connection between these higher tempertures and what man is doing or there is no provable connection between all the stuff we dumped in the water and the uptick in cancer cases. The state is a fucking joke. The trouble is that it’s not a funny one. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/26 "2014-05-01T06:14:36Z")
But aren’t we supposed to be better than murderers? I mean, what’s the point of outlawing murder then? What if someone goes and tortures and kills someone who harmed him or his family? Do they then get a free pass, if they killed someone who actually deserved it? Because not all murder victims are innocent. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/27 "2014-05-01T07:06:15Z")
ETA: Directed to **Zebra** ’s post #25 I was wrong. I apologize. From [here](http://www.earth.columbia.edu/articles/view/3072): > [@](#): > > […] The magnitude 5.7 quake near Prague was preceded by a 5.0 shock and followed by thousands of aftershocks. What made the swarm unusual is that wastewater had been pumped into abandoned oil wells nearby for 17 years without incident. In the study, researchers hypothesize that as wastewater replenished compartments once filled with oil, the pressure to keep the fluid going down had to be ratcheted up. As pressure built up, a known fault—known to geologists as the Wilzetta fault–jumped. “When you overpressure the fault, you reduce the stress that’s pinning the fault into place and that’s when earthquakes happen,” said study coauthor Heather Savage, a geophysicist at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. > > The amount of wastewater injected into the well was relatively small, yet it triggered a cascading series of tremors that led to the main shock, said study co-author Geoffrey Abers, also a seismologist at Lamont-Doherty. “There’s something important about getting unexpectedly large earthquakes out of small systems that we have discovered here,” he said. The observations mean that “the risk of humans inducing large earthquakes from even small injection activities is probably higher” than previously thought, he said. > > Hours after the first magnitude 5.0 quake on Nov. 5, 2011, University of Oklahoma seismologist Katie Keranen rushed to install the first three of several dozen seismographs to record aftershocks. That night, on Nov. 6, the magnitude 5.7 main shock hit and Keranen watched as her house began to shake for what she said felt like 20 seconds. “It was clearly a significant event,” said Keranen, the Geology study’s lead author. “I gathered more equipment, more students, and headed to the field the next morning to deploy more stations.” > > Keranen’s recordings of the magnitude 5.7 quake, and the aftershocks that followed, showed that the first Wilzetta fault rupture was no more than 650 feet from active injection wells and perhaps much closer, in the same sedimentary rocks, the study says. Further, **wellhead records showed that after 13 years of pumping at zero to low pressure, injection pressure rose more than 10-fold from 2001 to 2006** , the study says. > […] The study from the journal _Geology_ makes clear that this is happening in several other normally earthquake-quiescent areas of the country as well. That said, why are you teeing off on me about AGW and environmental carcinogens? If you want to rag on someone about AGW, there’s a thread that’s been going on in the Pit for 3/4 of a year now where they’d love to hear from you. I’m clear that AGW is very well proven, and environmental carcinogens? Who _doesn’t_ know about that. So back the fuck off. For the record, I’m in Oklahoma because 180 years ago, my people were moved to this part of the country by the US government. This was 75 years before there was anything called “Oklahoma”. I’ve never voted Republican in my life and I despise our governor and our state’s reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/28 "2014-05-01T08:35:35Z")
Note: Related thread, on the use of anesthetics for executions, over in GQ: > **[General anesthetic prior to death sentence?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=722304)** > > First. Not a debate on the merits of capital punishment. This has come back to the top of my mind after the recent horrific event. Why is a general anesthetic not administered? I’ve had a few, not unpleasant, but what they did to me while under... ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/29 "2014-05-01T13:15:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But aren’t we supposed to be better than murderers? I mean, what’s the point of outlawing murder then? What if someone goes and tortures and kills someone who harmed him or his family? Do they then get a free pass, if they killed someone who actually deserved it? Because not all murder victims are innocent. 1. Yes, we are better than murderers because we don’t commit murder. 2. The point of outlawing murder is to have a law whereby we can punish murderers, because society frowns upon murder. 3/4. If someone goes and tortures…harmed his family, the court will take that into consideration. 3. What does that mean ‘all murder victims are not innocent’? That they were complicit in their own murders?? Innocence of the victim for something that one does not like is a totally separate issue from what the murderer is being tried. The state takes this into consideration by the phrases ‘malice aforethought’, ‘felony murder’ etc… ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/30 "2014-05-01T14:10:57Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > ETA: Directed to **Zebra** ’s post #25 > > I was wrong. I apologize. From [here](http://www.earth.columbia.edu/articles/view/3072): > The study from the journal _Geology_ makes clear that this is happening in several other normally earthquake-quiescent areas of the country as well. > > That said, why are you teeing off on me about AGW and environmental carcinogens? If you want to rag on someone about AGW, there’s a thread that’s > been going on in the Pit for 3/4 of a year now where they’d love to hear from you. I’m clear that AGW is very well proven, and environmental carcinogens? > Who _doesn’t_ know about that. So back the fuck off. > > For the record, I’m in Oklahoma because 180 years ago, my people were moved to this part of the country by the US government. This was 75 years before there was > anything called “Oklahoma”. I’ve never voted Republican in my life and I despise our governor and our state’s reputation. AGW or Carcinogens are just another example of people burying their head in the sand, similar to people thinking that these earthquakes are ‘normal’. You still live in Oklahoma? You know we allow you folk to move about the country now. I suggest you do. Oklahoma is a wonderful place to be from. Far from. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/31 "2014-05-01T15:34:04Z")
“we allow you folk to move about the country now.”? _ **"we allow you folk to move about the country now"** __ **???** _ Reported. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/32 "2014-05-01T15:50:38Z")
Wow…what a derailment of a thread…from OK’s execution problems --\> death penalty debate --\> environmental impacts of fracking --\> to perceived racist comments. True dope style! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/33 "2014-05-01T16:50:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not a function of anybody refusing to purchase a house with a basement. The ground in much of Oklahoma is marbled and makes it almost impossible to build a basement that doesn’t crack into a zillion leaking pieces because of shifting. Builders have no way of guaranteeing them or they would build them. You are perpetuating a very dangerous myth — kind of the opposite of this board’s purpose, I’d say. Emphases mine: [http://www.ttbook.org/book/transcript/transcript-oklahoma-basement-myth-mike-hancock](http://www.ttbook.org/book/transcript/transcript-oklahoma-basement-myth-mike-hancock) > [@](#): > > Anne Strainchamps: Oklahoma is famous for tornados. And the safest place to be in a tornado is a basement. Right? But in Oklahoma they don’t have many basements. In fact, only three percent of homes have them. Why? Because **for a long time the people Oklahoma have believed that you can’t build basements in their soil. That’s not actually true. But try convincing anyone in Oklahoma of that.** Producer Charles Monroe-Kane called Mike Hancock, a guy with a tough job. He’s a basement contractor in Edmond, OK. > > Charles Monroe Monroe-Kane: Mike, why do you think people have this mindset? Why aren’t people building basements? I mean, they would be safer if they did. > > Mike Hancock: **People would be safer if they could build, if they would build basements. Absolutely. 100%.** > > Monroe-Kane: And they can, because you’ve built 800 of them. > > Hancock: **And they can, and we’ve built a lot of them.** That’s true. > > Monroe-Kane: Not to get to dark, but about a year ago–we’re coming up on the anniversary here–in Moore, OK. > > Hancock: Absolutely. > > Monroe-Kane: The city was devastated. Everyone had to rebuild. > > Hancock: Yes. > > Monroe-Kane: I’m afraid I’m going to answer this question, but did they rebuild with basements? > > Hancock: Of, of the 8,000 plus houses and structures that were actually taken out down there I received basically two calls for “let’s look at the option of doing a basement.” […]Out of all of that I’m only going to do one.[…] > > Monroe-Kane: Now, there’s a government subsidy from the state of Oklahoma that pays for basements[…]Mike, I gotta admit. It blows my mind. Doesn’t it blow your mind? > > Hancock: It does. It really is frustrating. It’s very very frustrating to go to talk to people everyday. I mean a good example is we’ll be at the Chesapeake arena where the Oklahoma City Thunder play basketball. And they’re playing basketball in the basement of the arena and the guy next to me will say you can’t put basements in Oklahoma.[…]I ask him, “Well, where’d you park?” “I parked next door in the Cox Convention Center.” Well that’s in the basement of the Cox Convention Center. It’s just like, and they’ll still say you can’t do that. > > Monroe-Kane: Now that’s gotta be…that is a hell of a myth, isn’t it?\*\* A hell of a myth that turns down free money and could save your family. That is a myth\*\*. It does appear though that I erred in saying 99% of Oklahoma homes do not have them. The correct number is 97%, which I misremembered as the more generic 99%. The essential point remains, however. > [@spazurek](#): > > Well, they lead the nation in publically-funded preschool: [NY Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/kristof-oklahoma-where-the-kids-learn-early.html?_r=0). > > But aside from that, I got nothin’. But that is actually impressive. Well, blow me down: I would not have predicted that in a million years. I wonder what is going on there? I have to suspect it was one well-placed person with a fierce drive that made this difference. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > For years – decades, really – as a child and then a young adult, I would travel the length of Oklahoma from West Texas to get to my grandmother’s house in Arkansas. Twice per trip, once each direction, occasionally doing it twice in a year. Doing it even before the interstates were completed as well as after. And I have to disagree with you about Oklahoma. Yeah: I have only been through Oklahoma once on the train and it looked ugly. Everyone I’ve known who has travelled there (without having Oklahoman roots or family connections) has said it is the ugliest place they have seen. And not just the landscape, but the architecture and general aesthetic sensibility. (One thing somebody told me, which I also found mentioned online, is that the residents are fond of exacerbating the ugliness by wearing shirts that are two sizes too small; this is all secondhand so take it with a grain of salt if you wish.) > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Still a whole lot better than the way his victims got to go out. Agreed; and if I felt better about the justice system’s ability to get these verdicts right and apply the same evidentiary standards to everyone regardless of race or socioeconomic class\*, I would probably flip from “mildly opposed” to “mildly in favour” of capital punishment. \*Not to mention, after assuring guilt, applying the penalty itself evenly as well: > **[Home](http://deathpenalty.org)** > > NC Governor Roy Cooper Commutes 15 Death Sentences; 121 Remain on North Carolina’s Death RowOn December 31, 2024, North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper commuted the death sentences of 15 individuals, replacing them with life imprisonment. This marks the... > [@](#): > > Those who kill non-Latino whites are over three times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill African-Americans. > Those who kill non-Latino whites are over four times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill Latinos. > In cases where only one victim was killed and no felony was involved, those who kill non-Latino whites are over seven times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill African-Americans. > In cases where only one victim was killed and no felony was involved, those who kill non-Latino whites are over eleven times more likely to be sentenced to die as those who kill Latinos. It would appear that more than valuing black murderers’ lives less than those of white murderers, it is black \*victims’ \*lives that count for less. Which is somehow even more repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/34 "2014-05-01T17:24:31Z")
Yeah, I’ve never heard of this “the ground in much of Oklahoma is marbled.” I’m not even really sure what that means. There is a lot of limestone here in the NE and eastern part of Oklahoma. Didn’t stop builders from putting in basements 70 - 80 years ago. As I alluded to in post #4, it seemed to be more of an economic issue to me. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/35 "2014-05-01T17:50:52Z")
**Slackerinc** , you say " Everyone I’ve known who has travelled there (without having Oklahoman roots or family connections) has said it is the ugliest place they have seen. And not just the landscape, but the architecture and general aesthetic sensibility." In 2001, Tulsa hosted the [World Congress on Art Deco](http://www.icads.info/world-congress/). From their webpage : > [@](#): > > A World Congress is intended to provide a forum for the world-wide exchange and promotion of ideas and information about Art Deco. The goals are: > •To promote the understanding of Art Deco as a worldwide design movement > •To identify sites and monuments around the world > •To network preservation groups > •To promote the conservation and preservation of sites and monuments > •To utilise Art Deco as an opportunity for economic development through tourism > •To raise the public awareness of Art Deco I was here at the time and from all accounts, from _all_ accounts, our international visitors were uniformly blown away by the beauty and power of the Art Deco heritage here in Tulsa. 40 miles north of here, in Bartlesville, is the only skyscraper designed by Frank Lloyd Wright that was actually [built](https://www.google.com/search?q=price+tower+bartlesville&biw=1440&bih=805&tbm=isch&imgil=TMg5p7GMaZ-sfM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTevpVzVD0PWQ4eWAmAg1Q8O_osiKsN3avFf1SxZcEZ6xjOHvKc%253B334%253B350%253BbPdwHMdlw-YZaM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.expedia.com%25252FBartlesville-Hotels-Inn-At-Price-Tower.h1579427.Hotel-Information&source=iu&usg=__ktkI074hciNQnWs8kvyLkfSJjT0%3D&sa=X&ei=vIhiU6fmO6SGyQGFnoDoBg&sqi=2&ved=0CFAQ9QEwBA#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=8hE_TIo1lC3SRM%253A%3BpEzHF03qa0hE-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F0.tqn.com%252Fd%252Farchitecture%252F1%252F0%252F9%252Fv%252FPriceTower.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Farchitecture.about.com%252Fod%252Ffranklloydwright%252Fig%252FFrank-Lloyd-Wright%252FPrice-Tower.htm%3B1694%3B1133). It is now an exquisite hotel that is admired by all who see it. Benedict Cumberbatch insisted on staying there while in Oklahoma last year participating in the filming of _August, Osage County_. I could go on, but honestly - for someone who in the _very same post_ admonished another poster for “perpetuating […] myth[s]” to do something quite similar is a little flabbergasting. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/36 "2014-05-01T19:08:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > …[Lengthy exchange between builder and interviewer on basements.]… In the quoted exchange, nowhere does it address whether basements can built economically throughout OK. While the contractor works in Edmund, OK, a northern suburb of OKC, I don’t know whether the same soil conditions and water table permit the economical building of basements in Moore, a southern suburb of OKC. If adding a basement adds 25% or more to the cost of the house—even with a subsidy (numbers _ex rectum_)—it could be rational to forego adding one. Especially if the likelihood of a tornado strong enough to seriously injure you if you took shelter in an interior room, yet not so powerful that you would be injured in a basement, is probably quite small. Even in Oklahoma. My impression is that the fact that a commercial building may be able to economically have a basement, doesn’t have much to do with whether the same is true for a small single-family house in the same area. (EDIT: Due to the substantial differences in commercial vs residential architecture/codes. Professional builders/architects, please chime in.) TL;DR: I’m not convinced by this lengthy exchange whether the people in OK are idiots for not having one, or whether it doesn’t make sense for them… > [@](#): > > Agreed; and if I felt better about the justice system’s ability to get these verdicts right and apply the same evidentiary standards to everyone regardless of race or socioeconomic class\*, I would probably flip from “mildly opposed” to “mildly in favour” of capital punishment. > > \*Not to mention, after assuring guilt, applying the penalty itself evenly as well: > > [http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=54](http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=54) > It would appear that more than valuing black murderers’ lives less than those of white murderers, it is black \*victims’ \*lives that count for less. Which is somehow even more repugnant. I agree with you that the death penalty should be more equitably used. My solution to that is to apply it more widely, not to abolish it. I agree that I’d want more guarantees that the guy getting the needle is actually the guy who committed the crime, if indeed—see Cameron Willingham—there actually was a crime committed. (Beyond Willingham being a wife-beating asshole, which is still not a capital crime, but is one of the reasons the police suspected him of being capable of burning his children to death.) And if you want to spare a hypothetical driver who drove the killer of a convenience store clerk away, yet didn’t have the feral instinct to get to the D.A. first with his story, or take a plea, I suppose I don’t have a problem with that either. But assuming the State has the right people, and take the time to make absolutely sure they are the right people, then the two pieces of garbage at issue in Oklahoma, two irrevocably broken people, one of whom raped one woman, and afterward shot and buried alive another woman, while the other raped and killed an 11 month old infant, need to have the State kill them as quickly, efficiently, and neatly as due process allows. FWIW, the second inmate has steadily proclaimed his innocence throughout the whole process. I’d want to see what evidence put him in the death cell, and it may be that, under a heightened burden of proof, there may not be enough there to warrant the State having enough faith to kill him. Only to confine him in a cage for life. Which _still_ sounds wrong: if we don’t have enough evidence that he committed these acts to warrant killing him, then we shouldn’t have enough evidence to warrant taking away his liberty for the rest of his life. Good luck getting the criminal justice system, and the voters to whom they answer, to agree. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/37 "2014-05-01T22:01:20Z")
It produced Mickey Mantle and Carrie Underwood. That’s gotta count for something. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/38 "2014-05-02T01:00:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But aren’t we supposed to be better than murderers? I mean, what’s the point of outlawing murder then? What if someone goes and tortures and kills someone who harmed him or his family? Do they then get a free pass, if they killed someone who actually deserved it? Because not all murder victims are innocent. “Clayton Locket was convicted of first-degree murder, rape, kidnapping and robbery for a 1999 crime spree with two co-defendants. He was found to have shot teen-ager Stephanie Nieman and buried her alive in a shallow grave where she eventually died.” - Guess you had to be there. ---
**Author:** ![PeskiPiksi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@PeskiPiksi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeskiPiksi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/39 "2014-05-02T01:49:45Z")
I think it’s pretty crappy to denigrate an entire state just because you don’t agree with the way the majority of them vote. (Nobody said that explicitly, but come on…) Maybe it’s not to your taste, but Oklahoma does have some lovely landscapes, and like **jimbuff314** noted upthread, unique and beautiful architecture. The people here _are_ kind, and friendly, and basically good–just like everywhere else in the world. Maybe right now the majority of them would vote against gay marriage and for the death penalty, but the majority of them would also give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. I’ve lived in Tulsa for almost all of my 37 years (did three years in Florida), so maybe I’m biased, but I’ve also traveled a lot and I’m a left-leaning atheist. There are more than a few of us here, you know. It’s not our fault we get outvoted…we’re working on it, okay? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353/40 "2014-05-02T02:58:38Z")
There are a lot of red states; their voting tendencies were not the primary motivation for my opinion. I hear what you are saying though: Bill Maher always points out that wherever he goes, there are enough of his kind of people to sell out a good-sized hall, and those tend to be his most enthusiastic crowds. > [@Little\_Pig](#): > > “Clayton Locket was convicted of first-degree murder, rape, kidnapping and robbery for a 1999 crime spree with two co-defendants. He was found to have shot teen-ager Stephanie Nieman and buried her alive in a shallow grave where she eventually died.” > > - Guess you had to be there. Yeah, that’s pretty bad. ::Googling Stephanie Nieman for more details:: > [@](#): > > Even after being kidnapped and driven to a dusty country road, Neiman didn’t back down when Lockett asked if she planned to contact police. > […] > “Right is right and wrong is wrong. Maybe that’s what Clayton was so scared of, because Stephanie did stand up for her rights,” her parents later wrote to jurors in an impact statement. “She did not blink an eye at him. We raised her to work hard for what she got.” > […] > Lockett later told police “he decided to kill Stephanie because she would not agree to keep quiet,” court records state. Those Niemans sure sound like intellectual titans. Just sayin’. > [@jimbuff314](#): > > **Slackerinc** , you say " Everyone I’ve known who has travelled there (without having Oklahoman roots or family connections) has said it is the ugliest place they have seen. And not just the landscape, but the architecture and general aesthetic sensibility." > […] > I could go on, but honestly - for someone who in the _very same post_ admonished another poster for “perpetuating […] myth[s]” to do something quite similar is a little flabbergasting. I’m not sure how it’s a “myth” to report (while inviting people explicitly to take it with a grain of salt) what I’ve heard from people I know. And these are aesthetic judgments; the question of whether one can build homes with basements in Oklahoma is a factual one, and a life-death question at that. > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > In the quoted exchange, nowhere does it address whether basements can built economically throughout OK. What about those 8,000 who rebuilt their tornado-destroyed homes, with only \*one \*apparently ending up doing so with a basement despite the government funds available to subsidise it? As the interviewer says, “A hell of a myth that turns down free money and could save your family”. I pretty much agree with the stuff you said about the death penalty though. I am also fine though with murderers getting locked up for life at hard labour. One of my best friends from college was killed in cold blood by someone whom he considered a friend (he even introduced me to the guy, one time a few months before he died) because the guy had stolen a gun and was afraid my friend Tom was going to rat him out to the cops. So he shoots Tom, buries him under a porta-potty, is loose-lipped and goes around laughing about how Tom said “ouch” before he died, inevitably gets caught and sent to prison. No death penalty though and I’m not clamouring for one. I do hate the incredible pointlessness of my friend being killed to cover up a smaller crime, causing the killer to actually get a much longer prison stint. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-oklahoma-do-anything-right/687353.md?page=3)