Never mind Lincoln, did they do more than Jefferson?
Of course they did (along with thousands of others), which is why it is so absurd to single Jefferson out for credit. Starguard, you really do need to get your head round the concept of relative importance.
The only conclusive point I was attempting to make was that Thomas Jefferson was amonst the first Political figures to both recognise and bring to the attention of others that Slavery was wrong. Even thought he never actualy made himself clear on where he stood, He was one of the very first people to make it known to others that one day slavery must come to an end…
Before one can make even the strongest chain, one has to first start with the first link…Thomas Jefferson was amonst those first links.
No he wasn’t. He wasn’t even one of the first political figures to condemn slavery in America. The Quakers in Pennsylvania voted to expel any slaveholding members in 1776. Slavery was abolished in Vermont in 1777, in Penn. in 1780, Mass. in 1783, RI and CT in 1784, in New York in 1799, in New Jersey in 1804. It’s not like Jefferson was some sort of lone voice. In fact, there was even substantial anti-slavery sentiment in Virginia. In 1785, the Baptist General Committee of Virginia called slavery “contrary to the Word of God”, and in 1790, speaking of slavery. recommended " to our brethren to make use of every legal measure to extirpate the horrid evil from our land".
Actually after my last post, I realized the Wilberforce and Clarkson probably freed more slaves than Lincoln. But this thread is supposedly about American slaves, so I’m going to give myself a pass.
No one has yet made the following point: The fact that some white man has had sex with a black woman (even assuming that Hemmings willingly had sex with Jefferson, which isn’t completely clear), or even that they had a child together, doesn’t prove that they aren’t racist. Lots of white men who were racist had secret black lovers. To give the most obvious case, the fact that Strom Thurmond had an illegitimate daughter with a black woman doesn’t make him any less racist.
For those that believe that Loncoln was the great emancipator of slaves Please
Read this very carefully I think that this will sum up everything once and for all
Typo: “Loncoln” should read “Lincoln” :smack:
I’ve read the Bennett book. Bennett gets facts wrong, he always interprets events in ways that portrays Lincoln in the worst light, and he ignores context. Even McPherson’s review associated with the book that you linked to says that Bennett’s book is hopelessly flawed. Did you not read the review? Do you disagree with it? If so, why? Did you read the book? What about it did you find convincing?
Starguard,
Perhaps you should not just read webpages and post to the SDMB. Perhaps you should also spend some significant amount of time reading books. You’ll find that it greatly repays the amount of time spent doing so.
Let’s first of all remember that Lincoln believed(as I do) that the south never had actually left the union. Therefore, in his thinking he freed all slaves in the United States in the areas where there were persons who were rebelling against the authority of the United States. Everything Licoln ever said or did refered to the rebels as combinations of people resisting the lawful authority of the United States. He freed the slaves in those areas where the people were still in rebellion. He had authority over those areas as he was the President of the United States. It really doesn’t matter whether or not those persons proclaimed their allegiance to the Confederate gov’t, that gov’t was not the legal power. So the Emancipation Proclaimation did legally free the affected slaves.
“And by virtue of the power and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States and parts of States are, and henceforward shall be, free; and that the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.”
Unless Congress acted differently and the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Congress, the Executive branch of the gov’t had to obey the President’s orders.
Yes I did. not in its entirety, I’m closing upon the final chapters now. Please explain to me exatly what you mean by “He always interprets events in ways that portrays Lincoln in the worst light and he ignores context” Exactly which " ignored context" do you refer to? A far as McPherson’s reviews are concerned, they appear to me as being nothing more that opinionated statements made through the views of a critic. ( but please keep in mind that this in only my own personal opinion…nothing more). All writers have critics. To me that’s what makes them so great. Before I continue with any more comments on this book, I will wait until I am completely finished before I continue any further.
Hi Wendy 
Have you read Lerone Bennett’s book? if not, give it a try, you may find it rather interesting.
As far as Thomas Jerrerson is concerned, I would like to take this opprotunity to state ** that I was very wrong about many issues pertaining to the historical accomplishments of this man** I will humbly admit that. But I would also like to bring to light that this is a man whose views on Slavery seems to jump all over the place and it doesn’t seem clear to me that anyone knows for sure exactly where this man stood as far as slavery is concerned. Throughout time there seems to have been so much information about this man’s personal life that has been lost to history that I don’t believe that anyone will ever know exatly where he stood on slavery. For viewing the cited responses from members of this Message Board alone, there appears to be people ranging from Doctors who specialize in flurensic reseach to Historians with PHD’S that are still at odds over how many children he had (and from whom) to whether he opposed or supported slavery as a whole.
In General, it appears that there is a lot of misleading information out there that even with accredited cites and references, no one can know for sure
(ex. I am still looking for a cite about the supposed speech Sally Hemmings made to congress after being called upon by Jefferson. ) I can actually remeber reading this somewhere and I will definitely post ( or scan it) here for you and all to see…regardless if it actualy happened or not
Typo: “For viewing the cited messages from members of this message board alone”
Should read " From viewing the cited messages from members of this message board alone"
Starguard writes:
> But I would also like to bring to light that this is a man whose views on Slavery
> seems to jump all over the place and it doesn’t seem clear to me that anyone
> knows for sure exactly where this man stood as far as slavery is concerned.
Perhaps on a personal level he disliked slavery. So what? All we know about are his public statements and his public actions. Publicly, he did nothing to end slavery. He owned slaves and didn’t even free them in his will. He was elected only because slave-owning states supported him. He never publicly spoke against slavery. That’s what’s important. Jefferson never did anything to end slavery.
> Hi Wendy
I don’t make up cutesy nicknames for you. Quit doing so for me. This is an indication that you have no arguments to make when you start calling people names.
Try reading a bunch of books about Jefferson before you start a thread on him, not just one.
Kurt Vonnegut wrote about speaking of this in address to a college group. After the speech, Vonnegut wrote, one of the professors told him that Jefferson couldn’t free his slaves because he didn’t own them. They were collateral for various loans that Jefferson had taken out for living expenses and were actually owned by the lenders after Jefferson’s death.
I know that sounds callous but the law of the time regarded slaves as property just like any other.
I believe Jefferson was nearly bankrupt in that his assets barely covered his debts at the time of his death.
Dear Mrs Wagner 
Please read this [url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7117/tjeff.htm]cite [url/] very carefully and then tell us what you think of it.
Also, (and I only ask this of you as a reference) please list for me the names and authors of any books YOU have read about this man that has you so convinced that he did nothing to end the slavery.
The reason I feel the way that I do about him is like this:
*In order for slavery to be stopped by anyone, someone must first bring it to the attention of others that it is wrong. In order to bring it to the attention of others, one must be in a stable position to do so. Please take very careful note of the first paragraph in the above cite. Read it two or three times before responding to these comments, and tell us your interpretation of it.
Also, if you would like a good Book Reference on his relations with Sally Hemmings, try reading this book:
Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings;An American Controversy
by Annette Gordon-Reed
If you haven’t read this book, check it out. From Introduction to conclusion its only 235 pages long
As soon as I finish Lerone Bennett Jr’s book “Forced into Glory, Abraham Lincolns White Dream” I’ll start searching for more Jefferson material to study (an cite as references) as we go along…You do the same. 
Lets try this again. [url=“http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7117/tjeff.htm”] Look here](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7117/tjeff.htm)
I have absolutely no idea of why this is happening, but…here it is again (spelled out this time) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7117/tjeff.htm
Garry Wills “Negro President”: Jefferson and the Slave Power.
Starguard writes:
> Dear Mrs Wagner
Again, this is proof that you have no argument. You’re calling people names rather than replying to their arguments. When you’re willing to make arguments rather than calling me names, then I’ll answer you.
David Simmons writes:
> Kurt Vonnegut wrote about speaking of this in address to a college group.
> After the speech, Vonnegut wrote, one of the professors told him that
> Jefferson couldn’t free his slaves because he didn’t own them. They were
> collateral for various loans that Jefferson had taken out for living expenses and
> were actually owned by the lenders after Jefferson’s death.
Yes, I understand this. But we have no reason to think that he would have freed his slaves in his will if he had had the money to do it. Again, we have no insight into his private thoughts on slavery. One argument seems to be that Jefferson had to keep quiet any anti-slavery thoughts he had because he knew that he would never have been elected if he came across as being anti-slavery. Again, we have no idea if he was really anti-slavery in his private thoughts. All Jefferson’s public words and actions were in support of slavery. And that’s what really mattered.