# Can Postmodern Architecture ever be timeless? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892 "2020-03-03T21:30:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/1 "2020-03-03T21:30:53Z")
First, to be clear, I’m talking about the specific movement that came about as a reaction to the specific school called Modernism, and not the lay idea that postmodern means whatever is most recent. I watched pomo architecture grow prevalent in the 80s and 90s, while a neophyte architecture fan, and I always thought it seemed to invest an awful lot in, and commit to a future of, what were essentially architectural “one liners.” Cute observations on current trends (not to say fads) that lose their impact after you get the joke; like the same old joke you wish your uncle would stop telling. These many years later, general reading tells me this has gained something of the status of general consensus. But of course the devil’s advocate in me continues to search for an example that proves the exception. So far, to my eye, no joy. Anyone have any thoughts on this? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/2 "2020-03-03T22:01:05Z")
Best as I can tell, [550 Madison Avenue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/550_Madison_Avenue) in Manhattan ("the Chippendale Building) is well-respected. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/3 "2020-03-03T22:32:53Z")
I like some of the examples of postmodern architecture in the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_architecture). For example the Haas School of Business and 400 West Market. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/4 "2020-03-03T22:33:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Best as I can tell, [550 Madison Avenue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/550_Madison_Avenue) in Manhattan ("the Chippendale Building) is well-respected. Hmm. I actually think of that building as the poster child for pomo as oneliner. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/5 "2020-03-03T22:48:27Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I like some of the examples of postmodern architecture in the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_architecture). For example the Haas School of Business and 400 West Market. The examples I like most would probably more accurately described as expressionist: Bilbao, Fred and Ginger. I think the Haas school is too reminiscent of 90s McMansions. I don’t hate 400 W Market, but I don’t really see anything remarkable about it. Sainsbury is pomo, but its references are specific and respectful. I can definitely see it as timeless. Sydney Operahouse occupies its own category and is impossible to be objective about. But definitely timeless, if only because its greatness, outside of any genre, commands such respect. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/6 "2020-03-04T08:52:41Z")
I think there’s always someone else for whom the one-liner is fresh, so it doesn’t really lose the impact. At least, for the good stuff, not shit like the frigging binoculars. That was _never_ funny. God, I hate Frank Gehry. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/7 "2020-03-04T09:49:34Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Hmm. I actually think of that building as the poster child for pomo as oneliner. YMMV. I think it has a pleasing symmetry, and the window layout creates an interesting pattern. It’s a generally nice-looking building with a distinctive crown - but then, distinctive [crowns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_Building)are a [New](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Radiator_Building)[York](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolworth_Building) [tradition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Building). ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/8 "2020-03-04T11:22:13Z")
If what “timeless” means is existing unchanged forever, beyond the reach of time, eternally true, then no. Post-modernism is now and will always be pegged to a specific time, that being now. Personally, I think it is almost always comes across as “we’ve moved beyond Brutalism to making vague references to the past, back when buildings were beautiful.” Not a fan. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/9 "2020-03-04T12:10:33Z")
I think that inasmuch as it insists on making obvious vague references, which is pretty much its purpose anyway, it will fail. But sometimes it can succeed in spite of itself. For instance, [this](https://twitter.com/jmudining/status/1004068724498935808?) is a pretty tasteful blend of late-International glass and Victorian Gothic. I dislike the classical columns: especially when you realize that it is a postmodern building, they stick out at you, but they blend in a lot better than some other classical elements elsewhere such as ostentatious sculptures. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/10 "2020-03-04T22:40:08Z")
I am not a fan of PostModern architecture. Unfortunately, I live in Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/11 "2020-03-04T22:56:03Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > If what “timeless” means is existing unchanged forever, beyond the reach of time, eternally true, then no. Post-modernism is now and will always be pegged to a specific time, that being now. Personally, I think it is almost always comes across as “we’ve moved beyond Brutalism to making vague references to the past, back when buildings were beautiful.” > > Not a fan. Right. Though I’m a big fan myself. Postmodernism in general makes no bones about the fact that it is rooted to a specific time and societal viewpoint. It’s not aiming to be timeless. Although ironically some buildings made in the postmodern style as considered iconic & timeless - The Guggenheim for instance. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/12 "2020-03-04T23:55:32Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I think that inasmuch as it insists on making obvious vague references, which is pretty much its purpose anyway, it will fail. But sometimes it can succeed in spite of itself. For instance, [this](https://twitter.com/jmudining/status/1004068724498935808?) is a pretty tasteful blend of late-International glass and Victorian Gothic. I dislike the classical columns: especially when you realize that it is a postmodern building, they stick out at you, but they blend in a lot better than some other classical elements elsewhere such as ostentatious sculptures. Hmmm. That looks like a pulled punch to me. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/13 "2020-03-04T23:58:03Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Right. Though I’m a big fan myself. Postmodernism in general makes no bones about the fact that it is rooted to a specific time and societal viewpoint. It’s not aiming to be timeless. > > Although ironically some buildings made in the postmodern style as considered iconic & timeless - The Guggenheim for instance. I don’t think I’d ever call the Guggenheim postmodern. I’d call it solidly modernist. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/14 "2020-03-05T00:12:49Z")
This is weird. I went to a talk by [Stephan Sagmeister](https://vimeo.com/209961130) last night, and he started by showing examples of Bauhaus and Post-Modern architecture, and asking why no one got it right after Van der Roe (sp?) and Corbusier. And then we discussed whether we should be trying to follow an aesthetic from a century ago… ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/15 "2020-03-05T00:24:23Z")
I think you’re thinking of Mies van der Rohe. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/16 "2020-03-05T05:30:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think you’re thinking of Mies van der Rohe. I SAID _“(sp?)”_ … what _more_ do you people _waaaant_ from me?!? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/17 "2020-03-05T06:50:02Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I SAID _“(sp?)”_ … what _more_ do you people _waaaant_ from me?!? A web search? I doubt any art is timeless. Everything exists in a context, and is only understood in reference to that context. That’s a core tenet of postmodernism, BTW: There’s no single interpretive framework which is universally applicable, no total system which is fully and finally correct, so everything is interpreted by people embedded in a culture influenced by previous cultures. So educated Westerners see Classical Roman architecture and understand it to mean specific things because of the importance that Classical Rome holds in our current culture; we say it’s “timeless” because we think the time it came from is eternally relevant in some ways, but we don’t think it is from “no time” or “outside of time” because that would rob us of our ability to understand it. It’s “timeless” precisely because it comes from a time we hold in high regard. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/18 "2020-03-05T18:49:18Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > . . . It’s “timeless” precisely because it comes from a time we hold in high regard. I’ma have to disagree. Appreciation of Art Deco doesn’t equal high regard for the 30s. Its timelessness is innate to the design itself. What makes it timeless is our appreciation for it outside its time. Fans of brutalism are not (necessarily) fans of Italian Fascism. The ancient temples of Viet Nam are breathtakingly beautiful simply as objects, context free. Pomo is different: Googie architecture e.g. is very much a reflection of its time, and can never be anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/19 "2020-03-05T19:07:22Z")
It sounds like you’ve answered your own question by definition. You’ve defined pomo architecture to be not-timeless. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892/20 "2020-03-05T20:01:01Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > It sounds like you’ve answered your own question by definition. You’ve defined pomo architecture to be not-timeless. Not if you read the entire thread. Besides which, I strive to maintain good debate hygiene whenever I discuss something, and I’m always on the lookout for a true scotsman, as well as many other easily self-inflicted wounds. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-postmodern-architecture-ever-be-timeless/848892.md?page=2)