# Can public school teachers refuse to say the pledge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975 "2006-09-24T20:05:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/1 "2006-09-24T20:05:26Z")
North Carolina has just put in place a [law requiring schools to schedule time for the Pledge of Allegiance](http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions/2005/Bills/Senate/HTML/S700v5.html). The law states that: > [@](#): > > These policies shall not compel any person to stand, salute the flag, or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I believe that this means that no policy can compel a teacher (e.g., a Jehovah’s Witness) to recite the pledge, but it seems a little ambiguous to me: could a school board legally adopt a diferent policy to compel a teacher to recite the pledge? Could a principal legally require a teacher to recite the pledge as a condition of employment? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/2 "2006-09-24T20:05:56Z")
Sorry, that was me, not **burundi** , asking. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/3 "2006-09-25T00:43:02Z")
I think that in a public school setting, a law requiring teachers to recite the pledge would fall firmly into the categry of “abridging the freedom of speech”, and would therefore be prohibited under the First Amendment. That doesn’t mean that a principal or school board can’t do it, just that such a rule, if challenged, would eventually be overturned by the courts. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/4 "2006-09-25T00:57:49Z")
I think this falls into a similar category w/ the boy scout professing a belief in god, whether specifically true or not. From a practical point of view, is this a battle worth fighting? If a teacher really wants to be in the classroom, I think they would severely limit their opportunities if they took this one on. On the other hand, if they’re looking for an excuse to make a career change… ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/5 "2006-09-25T00:59:22Z")
AFAIK, no they can’t. They attempted to do so a few years ago in my district, but back-pedaled very quickly when another teacher and I started making very loud comments about contacting the ACLU. They settled with playing a bad rendition of the National Anthem before the bulletin every Monday. Kids ask me every now and then why I refuse to say the pledge. I tell them to ask me after they graduate. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/6 "2006-09-25T01:47:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **A.R. Cane** : From a practical point of view, is this a battle worth fighting? One of my favorite quotations that I taught my students was this one from Emerson: “Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” How could I teach them to value the principle of that line of thought and then cave in to the requirement that I pledge my allegiance to a symbol and to a country which no longer _really_ stands for Liberty and Justice for all? I would be lying to myself and to my students. Yes, the battle for personal and academic integrity is always worth fighting. (I would not introduce my personal political opinions about my country into my classroom; that would not be appropriate for my classroom and subject matter.) ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/7 "2006-09-25T01:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] One of my favorite quotations that I taught my students was this one from Emerson: “Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” How could I teach them to value the principle of that line of thought and then cave in to the requirement that I pledge my allegiance to a symbol and to a country which no longer _really_ stands for Liberty and Justice for all? I would be lying to myself and to my students. Yes, the battle for personal and academic integrity is always worth fighting. (I would not introduce my personal political opinions about my country into my classroom; that would not be appropriate for my classroom and subject matter.) [/QUOTE] I should have qualified my opinion. I was assuming that refusal would be based on the “under God” issue. mea culpa. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/8 "2006-09-25T02:23:20Z")
[Related news from Japan:](http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200609210422.html) [quote] > [@](#): > > The Tokyo District Court on Thursday ruled that the Tokyo board of education’s directive forcing teachers to stand for the Hinomaru flag and to sing the “Kimigayo” national anthem was both unconstitutional and illegal. The whole article is a very good read. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/9 "2006-09-25T02:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] (I would not introduce my personal political opinions about my country into my classroom; that would not be appropriate for my classroom and subject matter.) [/QUOTE] I teach American Government, so I can always introduce my personal opinions. I try very hard, though, to identify them as such, and not History or Holy Writ. My students seem to like trying to poke holes in my arguments. It gets them thinking, which is the main idea. One of the greatest compliments I ever got as a teacher was when a local Mormon reading group examined my Government book list. They had two comments: 1) That it was the most balanced book list they had seen in quite a while, and 2) They liked how I had listed \*The Communist Manifesto \* under “Fiction.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/10 "2006-09-25T02:49:00Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] AFAIK, no they can’t. They attempted to do so a few years ago in my district, but back-pedaled very quickly when another teacher and I started making very loud comments about contacting the ACLU. They settled with playing a bad rendition of the National Anthem before the bulletin every Monday. Kids ask me every now and then why I refuse to say the pledge. I tell them to ask me after they graduate. [/QUOTE] Right. > [@](#): > > We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control. [West Virginia v. Barnette](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/barnette.html) 319 U.S. 624 (1943); _and see_, [“Exploring Constitutional Conflicts: Coerced speech”](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/compelledspeech.htm); _and don’t you wish you could see_, Alan K. Chen,\* Forced Patriot Acts\*, 81 Denv. U.L. Rev. 703 (2004) (reviewing history of forced patriotism); Laurie Allen Gallancy, _Teachers and the Pledge of Allegiance_, 57 U. Chi. L. Rev. 929 (1990) (unconstitutional to require teachers to recite the pledge). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/11 "2006-09-25T02:54:39Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] Right. [West Virginia v. Barnette](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/barnette.html) 319 U.S. 624 (1943); _and see_, [“Exploring Constitutional Conflicts: Coerced speech”](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/compelledspeech.htm); _and don’t you wish you could see_, Alan K. Chen,\* Forced Patriot Acts\*, 81 Denv. U.L. Rev. 703 (2004) (reviewing history of forced patriotism); Laurie Allen Gallancy, _Teachers and the Pledge of Allegiance_, 57 U. Chi. L. Rev. 929 (1990) (unconstitutional to require teachers to recite the pledge). [/QUOTE] Awesome, **Gfactor** –this is what I suspected, but I wasn’t sure about it. I don’t know how I’ll handle this when the time comes. On the one hand, as a pretty comfortable atheist, I don’t believe in the sacred value of words, much less the sacred value of compelled words; I therefore don’t think there is anything immoral about mouthing words I don’t believe, as long as nobody is making decisions based on information in those words. On the other hand, I think there is value in acting as an example of integrity, and viscerally saying the Pledge seems like an act of cowardice to me (for myself, since I don’t believe the words–not for folks in general). I’m leaning toward standing silently and respectfully during the Pledge, and if any students ask why, just telling them that I have personal, private reasons and that the school policy allows anyone to stand silently instead of saying the pledge. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/12 "2006-09-25T02:59:00Z")
I’m fairly certain the school cannot even require someone to stand for the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/13 "2006-09-25T03:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] I’m fairly certain the school cannot even require someone to stand for the pledge. [/QUOTE] No they can’t. But since part of our job is to also teach students to respect other opinions, common courtesy says to stand silently during the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/14 "2006-09-25T03:25:52Z")
[QUOTE=burundi] North Carolina has just put in place a law [/QUOTE] What a terrible job of drafting they did: Here is what the statute used to say: > [@](#): > > local boards of education shall have the power or duty: > > * * * > > To Encourage the Display of the United States and North Carolina Flags, and to Encourage the Recitation of the Pledge or Oath of Allegiance. – Local boards of education are encouraged to adopt policies to (i) provide for the display of the United States and North Carolina flags in each classroom, (ii) provide the opportunity for students to recite the Pledge or Oath of Allegiance on a regular basis, and (iii) provide age‑appropriate instruction on the meaning and historical origins of the flag and the Pledge of Allegiance. \*\*These policies shall not compel any person to stand, salute the flag, or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. \*\*If flags are donated or are otherwise available, flags shall be displayed in each classroom. (Emphasis added.) > **[G.S. 115C-47](https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_115C/GS_115C-47.html)** It’s easy to see how a policy that provides the opportunity for students to recite the Pledge can be construed consistently with the bolded language. In fact, it would be tough to read the statute (and policies permitted under it) to require anyone to recite the Pledge. Now take a look at what they did to it: > [@](#): > > SECTION 1. G.S. 115C‑47(29a) reads as rewritten: > > "§ 115C‑47. Powers and duties generally. > > In addition to the powers and duties designated in G.S. 115C‑36, local boards of education shall have the power or duty: > > … > > (29a) To [Del]Encourage[/Del] Require the Display of the United States and North Carolina Flags, and to [Del]Encourage[/Del] Require the Recitation of the Pledge [Del]or Oath[/Del] of Allegiance. – Local boards of education [Del]are encouraged to[/Del] shall adopt policies to (i) [Del]provide for[/Del] require the display of the United States and North Carolina flags in each classroom, when available, (ii) [Del]provide the opportunity for students to recite the Pledge or Oath of Allegiance on a regular basis,[/Del] require that recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance be scheduled on a daily basis, and (iii) provide age‑appropriate instruction on the meaning and historical origins of the flag and the Pledge of Allegiance. These policies shall not compel any person to stand, salute the flag, or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. If flags are donated or are otherwise available, flags shall be displayed in each classroom." > **[SL2006-0137](https://www.ncleg.gov/Sessions/2005/Bills/Senate/HTML/S700v5.html)** I can see how you got confused, Daniel. I’m not sure how a a policy requiring the recitation of the Pledge can be read not to compel people to recite the Pledge and retain any meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/15 "2006-09-25T03:34:33Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] I can see how you got confused, Daniel. I’m not sure how a a policy requiring the recitation of the Pledge can be read not to compel people to recite the Pledge and retain any meaning. [/QUOTE] I **think** what they’re trying to say is that the school board is required to set up policies by which the Pledge is **scheduled** , but that people aren’t required to **participate**. **Monty** , I also think you’re right, that according to this statute people can’t be required to stand during the pledge. Good catch! I’m fine with standing during it, but if students don’t want to, I can require them to show respect through standing or sitting quietly. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/16 "2006-09-25T03:39:25Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] No they can’t. But since part of our job is to also teach students to respect other opinions, common courtesy says to stand silently during the pledge. [/QUOTE] And if that itself violates one’s principles, one’s religion? I hold to the opinion that common courtesy is not law. The law guarantees rights. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/17 "2006-09-25T03:44:09Z")
> [@](#): > > North Carolina is now one of 37 states that require schools to include the pledge in their daily schedules, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Six other states have made the practice optional. Until this year, North Carolina law only “encouraged” schools to display flags in classrooms and recite the pledge. from [The News&Observer](http://www.newsobserver.com/146/story/484343.html). OK. Since 37 states perhaps now **require** it, have there been any suits filed against this? And, now that I"ve read the last replies more closely, I understand more. Question withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/18 "2006-09-25T04:05:14Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] And if that itself violates one’s principles, one’s religion? I hold to the opinion that common courtesy is not law. The law guarantees rights. [/QUOTE] Agreed. If anybody feels that strongly about it, then stay seated by all means. Respect of the beliefs of others goes both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/19 "2006-09-25T05:36:41Z")
Excellent comment, **silenus**. Now if we can just get lawmakers to figure that out. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975/20 "2006-09-25T13:24:18Z")
When I was in school (1942-1954) PA statues required that 10 verses of the bible be read without comment at the beginning of every school day. A couple of teachers in HS ignored it and no point was made either way. The pledge became a religious pledge around when I finished. A girl I dated went to a school that had students do the reading. A moslem girl tried to read from the Koran, but was prevented from doing so. Which reminds me, is a Moslem teacher supposed to read the bible? (I guess their official doctrine is that it is a holy book, so how about a Hindu or Buddhist?) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-public-school-teachers-refuse-to-say-the-pledge/373975.md?page=2)