# Can Puerto Ricans Run For President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 15, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008 "2017-06-15T03:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/21 "2017-06-15T18:51:27Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I was born in the Alaska Territory, and I could run. Anyone can _run_. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/22 "2017-06-15T20:14:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > People who are born as citizens of other countries and adopted by American citizens aren’t themselves natural born citizens and can’t run for president. But as I said, when you’re adopted, you get a new birth certificate. This seems kind of capricious since in all other respects the adopted child is equal to the birth child. In theory, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/23 "2017-06-15T20:57:33Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > How is PR _not_ part of the US? You don’t have to be born in a _State_, just _the United States_, right? PR is not the former, but it _is_ the latter. As far as I understand it, that is. There is a distinction in political geography between a territory being “part of” a country and “belonging to” a country. For example, the Falkland Islands are in no sense part of the United Kingdom, whereas Guadeloupe is legally part of France. This distinction is marked in the case of United States territories by the terms “incorporated” and “unincorporated”. Applying this terminology, Puerto Rico is not part of the United States, while the Alaska territory and Arizona territory were. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/24 "2017-06-16T00:33:18Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > But as I said, when you’re adopted, you get a new birth certificate. This seems kind of capricious since in all other respects the adopted child is equal to the birth child. In theory, anyway. But a new birth certificate doesn’t change the facts of your birth, any more than a new death certificate could change the reality of your death. What adoption does is to create, for a wide range of purposes, a legal fiction that you are the child of A and B, when in fact the objective, factual, biological, genetic reality is that you are the child of X and Y. And while adoption, as a statutorily-created mechanism, can alter the operation or effect of other statutes, I think it’s open to question whether it can alter the operation or effect of the Constitution, at any rate where that intention is not explicitly or implicitly expressed in the Constitution itself. The words “natural born” must mean _something_, and the general view is that they mean a citizenship derived from/dependent on the circumstances of your birth. If you want to change that, it may require a constitutional amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/25 "2017-06-16T00:43:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But nobody at all claimed that he was ineligible to be President on those grounds. _[Why Senator John McCain Cannot Be President: Eleven Months and a Hundred Yards Short of Citizenship](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1157621)_ ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/26 "2017-06-16T01:18:28Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > What condition? The full and complete definition of the citizenship needed to be president is “natural born citizen.” That’s it. The best understanding is that a “natural born citizen” is anyone who is a citizen by virtue of their birth, and that website gives what appear to be the current rules for citizenship at birth. Nationality law is not written in stone, though (in fact, the Supreme Court just overturned some of it a few days ago), and it might have been different when your children were born. (I think, in the past, only time spent in the USA after a certain age has counted for that particular rule. It came up in the Obama birther threads, when people would say that it didn’t matter if he was born in Kenya because his mother was American.) I’m a natural born citizen of the USA, have lived in the USA for more than 5 years, married to a non-citizen, with a child born in a foreign country. I think that the criteria given for “natural born citizen” on that third-party website are incorrect. It is not an official government website, and does not link directly to any official documentation: I think that the information it provides is either (1) out of date, or (2) simplified. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/27 "2017-06-16T01:37:41Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > But as I said, when you’re adopted, you get a new birth certificate. This seems kind of capricious since in all other respects the adopted child is equal to the birth child. In theory, anyway. In all respects going forward, yes. But I’m not so sure that it changes events that happened in the past - and the child wasn’t born a citizen. Think about inheritance, for example. Let’s just say that I adopt a child who was orphaned- maybe my cousin and his wife die in a car accident. They had one child, and their wills left everything to her, so she inherits everything. If I adopt her _after_ she has already inherited the assets, I don’t think they are taken from her and given to whoever would have inherited if she had never been born. And I’m pretty sure that if my mother leaves $10K to each of her grandchildren, the child I adopted two years after the estate was settled doesn’t have a claim. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/28 "2017-06-16T01:57:02Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’m a natural born citizen of the USA, have lived in the USA for more than 5 years, married to a non-citizen, with a child born in a foreign country. > > I think that the criteria given for “natural born citizen” on that third-party website are incorrect. It is not an official government website, and does not link directly to any official documentation: I think that the information it provides is either (1) out of date, or (2) simplified. This issue is that “natural born citizen” has never actually been defined. I don’t believe there is any real question that those who acquire citizenship as a result of being born in the US qualify as natural born citizens. There seems to be a consensus among legal experts that anyone who is a citizen at birth and does not require naturalization is a natural born citizen - but since it only matters in the context of running for president, the question has never been answered definitively. And it may never be , until “a citizen from birth” who was not born on US soil wins a presidential election. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/29 "2017-06-16T01:58:30Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’m a natural born citizen of the USA, have lived in the USA for more than 5 years, married to a non-citizen, with a child born in a foreign country. > > I think that the criteria given for “natural born citizen” on that third-party website are incorrect. It is not an official government website, and does not link directly to any official documentation: I think that the information it provides is either (1) out of date, or (2) simplified. Why do you think this? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/30 "2017-06-16T02:45:42Z")
But all of that is getting afield of the OP’s question. Everyone agrees that someone born in the US is a natural-born citizen, and Puerto Ricans are born in the US. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/31 "2017-06-16T03:03:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Actually, I think people _did_ question it at the time. Not actually. People pointed it out, but AFAIK, no one seriously argued it disqualified him. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/32 "2017-06-16T03:28:35Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But a new birth certificate doesn’t change the facts of your birth, any more than a new death certificate could change the reality of your death. What adoption does is to create, for a wide range of purposes, a legal fiction that you are the child of A and B, when in fact the objective, factual, biological, genetic reality is that you are the child of X and Y. And while adoption, as a statutorily-created mechanism, can alter the operation or effect of other statutes, I think it’s open to question whether it can alter the operation or effect of the Constitution, at any rate where that intention is not explicitly or implicitly expressed in the Constitution itself. The words “natural born” must mean _something_, and the general view is that they mean a citizenship derived from/dependent on the circumstances of your birth. If you want to change that, it may require a constitutional amendment. There is nothing on my birth certificate that indicates it’s a legal fiction. And it DID change the facts of my birth, as stated on the certificate itself. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/33 "2017-06-16T03:30:08Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > In all respects going forward, yes. But I’m not so sure that it changes events that happened in the past - and the child wasn’t born a citizen. > > Think about inheritance, for example. Let’s just say that I adopt a child who was orphaned- maybe my cousin and his wife die in a car accident. They had one child, and their wills left everything to her, so she inherits everything. If I adopt her _after_ she has already inherited the assets, I don’t think they are taken from her and given to whoever would have inherited if she had never been born. And I’m pretty sure that if my mother leaves $10K to each of her grandchildren, the child I adopted two years after the estate was settled doesn’t have a claim. Let’s say your mother leaves $10K to each of her grandchildren, and two years after the estate was settled you have another one by the normal means. That child wouldn’t have a claim either. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/34 "2017-06-16T04:10:56Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > There is nothing on my birth certificate that indicates it’s a legal fiction. So? > [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > And it DID change the facts of my birth, as stated on the certificate itself. How did it do that? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/35 "2017-06-16T04:22:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Everyone agrees that someone born in the US is a natural-born citizen, and Puerto Ricans are born in the US. I don’t think there’s any real debate about whether they’re natural born citizens, but someone born in Puerto Rico is actually born _outside_ the US. That’s why there has to be a separate law stating that anyone born in Puerto Rico is a US citizen. In the case of Puerto Rico (and most territories), the law happens to be identical in substance to the 14th Amendment, so nobody really notices the difference, but unincorporated territories do not necessarily have the same rules as the US. (For example, someone born in American Samoa is _not_ necessarily a citizen. Most of the local population are merely “nationals” rather than citizens.) ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/36 "2017-06-16T07:08:50Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > So? > How did it do that? It says I was born to A&B, when in fact I was born to X&Y. What I’m getting at here is that the birth certificate of an adopted child is going to say it was born to the adoptive parents–as mine does. If the parents are American citizens, then the child is, too. Whatever country they’re born in. Therefore, the adoptive parents being American citizens, so is the adopted child. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/37 "2017-06-16T07:33:22Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > It says I was born to A&B, when in fact I was born to X&Y. > > What I’m getting at here is that the birth certificate of an adopted child is going to say it was born to the adoptive parents–as mine does. If the parents are American citizens, then the child is, too. Whatever country they’re born in. Therefore, the adoptive parents being American citizens, so is the adopted child. Yes, yes, absolutely; the adopted child of US citizens is a US citizen. No question. The fact, as you rightly point out, is that the child was born to X and Y, even though the birth cert says otherwise. But the child is a US citizen by virtue of their adoption by A & B, who are US citizens, not by virtue of the facts of circumstances of birth. Hence, the child is not a “natural-born” citizen, because the citizenship is in no way connected with the facts or circumstances of their birth; it is a consequence of their adoption. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008/38 "2017-06-16T07:41:28Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Yes, yes, absolutely; the adopted child of US citizens is a US citizen. No question. That’s a fairly recent change, though. If they were born before 1983, they didn’t acquire US citizenship automatically (the law changed in 2001 and applied to adopted children under the age of 18). Naturalization was a separate process, and many parents [failed to complete it for their children](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/us/adam-crapser-deportation-south-korea.html?_r=0): > [@](#): > > According to the Adoptee Rights Campaign, an advocacy group, there are about 35,000 people in the United States who were adopted by American couples as children but who do not have citizenship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-puerto-ricans-run-for-president/789008.md?page=1)