# Can r@pe be the victim's fault? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2002, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663 "2002-12-30T12:09:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/21 "2002-12-30T17:42:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fauxpas \* > \*\*Well does that mean Adam r@ped Eve? \*\* According to Genesis, Eve was created from Adam for Adam. Do we know when concepton of thier first born took place? Was it before or after they sinned for the first time? If it was before the first sin then he couldn`t have raped her. If it was after the first sin then there is the possibility. Never mind I found it, it was after the first sin. Genesis 3:16 “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” So no He did not rape her. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/22 "2002-12-30T17:46:47Z")
Perhaps the word itself is becoming taboo or something. Anyway, I don’t think the victim could ever be at fault if they truly were raped. It can’t be justified as an act of self-defense like shooting an assailant dead can possibly be. Now, if the ‘victim’ planned the whole thing; to accuse the other person of rape, legally they consented to it since they planned to set this up. I recall seeing an episode of Law and Order in which a girl and her older sister frame some random guy of rape so they can sue the newly opened hotel that the incident happened in so they could get rich at some poor guy’s expense. The girl met some guy at the bar, talked, they went back to her room and had sex, then she had her sister beat her up and claimed the guy raped her. They were banking on the hotel giving them some huge settlement to avoid the bad publicity associated with the crime happening in their hotel. By the time the detectives found out, the framed guy had gotten beaten to death in jail when awaiting his court date. In that case, it wasn’t rape obviously because the girl planned the whole thing. (though I am unsure of the legitimacy of TV crime dramas…) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/23 "2002-12-30T18:36:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Incubus \* > (though I am unsure of the legitimacy of TV crime dramas…) \*\* Not much at all. I think the problem is the overly broad definition of rape. IMHO, rape is physically forcing someone to have sex with you against their will. It is not: -picking up some girl who had a few drinks and is feeling permiscuous -having sex with someone under false pretenses -willingly having sex with someone and then retroactively changing her mind ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/24 "2002-12-30T19:30:03Z")
**Sinful** , welcome to the SDMB. Coupla things: 1. This message board does not have filtering software that censors certain words. If it is a belief to the contrary, rather than personal scruples that has you typing “r@pe” rather than “rape”, set your mind at ease and type what you mean to communicate. 2. I can think of no way that this could be a qestion with a factual answer, and as such, it will probably be moved to Great Debates by the end of the day. Don’t take it personally when it happens. 3. The tortuousness of this paraphrasing > [@](#): > > A girl was giving a speech in my English class, and she said something to the effect of “R@pe can be the person who the act is commited on’s fault” makes it almost painful to read (although there is a certain amusing irony to the fact that you’re describing something you heard in an English class ;)). 1. Could you favor us with some of your classmate’s actual points that lead her to her conclusion? It would make for a more enlightening debate. Once again, welcome to the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/25 "2002-12-30T19:42:20Z")
According to the legal definition of Rape, it can never be the victims fault. It is a lawyers trick to sway the jury into thinking the victim shared some responsibility for the act of aggression. But sexual violation is an aggressive act not sexual. Whatever actions the victim did to invite a sexual situation goes out the door (or should) when the rapist took control and violation occurred. So going up to Mike Tysons apartment past midnight, alone, thinking that all a hormone overdosed drooling 250 lb neanderthal is going to do is _talk_, that is stupid. Sexually violating her is his fault alone. ---
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/26 "2002-12-30T19:50:38Z")
Back to Mary and god for a moment. A recent thread (I’m sorry I don’t have it handy to cite) gave Mary’s age as 12-13 at conception, mighty young for someone as old as god (Or Gaberial. Or both for that matter). This ain’t looking good for god. Even if you allow that the age of consent was lower then you still get into whole thing of an important, father figure, some one of immense power and authority convincing a very young girl that having sex (of some form or another) was the thing to do. Kinda like the Catholic priests so much in the news these days. ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/27 "2002-12-30T20:09:35Z")
On the topic of God and Mary: Think about it for a second. Imagine if a devout, god-fearing/loving person was told by God that she would bear his child. How many people would really say no to that? She might have felt obligated to do it; after all, it was for the good of mankind. Or perhaps she feared what might happen to her if she disobeyed God’s wishes. Either way, I would seriously doubt that refusing to bear God’s child was a choice for her. On the topic of rape in general: I took a class called Think Tank, in which we debated current issues. One of the issues was rape. A few of the guys in my class were absolutely convinced that rape was the girl’s fault. They said that it is the woman’s fault for going into an unsafe environment, or for wearing revealing clothing. They said that wearing such outfits was “asking for it,” and that the rapist could not control himself. I disagreed with them, but what are your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/28 "2002-12-30T20:22:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monica \* > \*\*On the topic of rape in general: I took a class called Think Tank, in which we debated current issues. One of the issues was rape. A few of the guys in my class were absolutely convinced that rape was the girl’s fault. They said that it is the woman’s fault for going into an unsafe environment, or for wearing revealing clothing. They said that wearing such outfits was “asking for it,” and that the rapist could not control himself. I disagreed with them, but what are your thoughts? \*\* I think the boy’s responses were based on the common sense assumption that people have a duty to manifest some degree of common sense in potentially dangerous situations in order to keep from being harmed by others, when in fact this assumption is wrong and no such legal duty or “fault” exists with respect to being assaulted. Whether or not people have a _personal_ (vs legal) responsibility (to themselves if no one else) not to behave in extremely foolish ways that endanger them is a more complex question and a few (obviously not all) of the boys assertions might have merit in this context with respect to the risks inherent in doing stupid things in dangerous places. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/29 "2002-12-30T20:32:09Z")
The only factual question here is one of the legal definition of “rape.” But I don’t think that’s what you’re asking, so I’ll move this thread to Great Debates. bibliophage moderator GQ ---
**Author:** ![Bubba\_Ray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bubba\_Ray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bubba_Ray)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/30 "2002-12-30T21:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > \*\*… > > To say that no matter how stupid and/or irresponsible a person’s behavior is that it’s never their fault that bad things happen to them if the action against them is against the law may be technically correct but stupidity has its price. It’s not his “fault” he got assaulted but incredibly foolish behavior that puts you in harm’s way occasionally has dire consequences, and although he was not at fault for the assault itself I would assign some degree of personal (not legal) responsibility toward him for his foolish actions and the way things turned out. \*\* Beautifully said. Fact stays (in my opinion) that there is no excuse for the rapist, while the victim might have shown a remarkable lack of common sense there is still no reason for the rapist to commit the rape. As a more personal thought, please dont use any obfuscation on the word rape, a topic like that may never become a taboo. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/31 "2002-12-30T21:56:34Z")
**Monica** here’s my take on the questions the guys in your class brought up. Back when I was working in tourism in Waikiki, I often had to check people into there hotel rooms at around midnight or 1:00 am because my company routinely booked clients on a flight from Japan which got in quite late at night. Since I also lived in Waikiki, I would, of course, walk to and from work. This meant that I, a woman in her early twenties, would be walking the streets of Waikiki and going into hotels with men in a neighborhood in which prostitution was pretty common. I’d also occaisionally have to be at hotels at 4 or 4:30 on a weekend morning when the bars had closed at 4:00 am. My employer’s uniform was a knee-length skirt and pumps. Nothing bad ever happened to me, but if it had, my question to them is, under those circumstances, would I have been “asking for it”? After all, I was out late at night, unescorted, around the time the bars were letting out. I was even, officially, an “escort”, albeit a _tour_ escort. Actually, at 2 in the morning, after I’d got my clients safely to bed (not in _that_ way!:D), what I was was _tired!_ Society certainly has tried to claim that rape was the victim’s fault, but, as others have said, the rapist is responsible for his own actions. No. It isn’t. CJ ---
**Author:** ![BioHazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@BioHazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BioHazard)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/32 "2002-12-30T22:19:03Z")
Can rape ever be the victims fault? I say a resounding MAYBE. If they knowingly put themselves in a situation where a rape is inevitable, and do nothing to try to avoid it is MAYBE their fault, dependent on the circumstances. My cite is my personal experience with it. I’m a male and when I was 22 I was raped by a 16 year old female. I’m serious about this so please bear with me. I put myself at risk for the rape because 1) I knew her parents were gone when she asked me over, she was having a party. 2) She was giving me a bottle of Jack Daniels. 3) Every time I was with her she would “try” something or even ask me to have sex with her. 4) I once jokingly mentioned to a friend of mine that my goal in life was to be raped by a hot girl, and that idiot friend mentioned it to her one time. 5) She tried to make out with me several times that night, and each time I pushed her off she poured me another glass of JD. I call this a rape because I did not want to have sex with her, I only liked her as a friend and also because she had sex with me after I passed out. I was more shocked than anything else because I NEVER even thought she would try something like this and because she let four of her female friends watch. I was glad she put on a rubber, otherwise I would have been VERY mad. I never talked to her again until recently. She just turned 18 and wants to hang out for New Years eve. I have a big decision to make. This story raises a couple questions. Could her parents have charged me with statuatory? Could I have been charged with Corruption of a Minor? My 2nd point (sorry, no cites). A while ago I saw a rape trial on TV about a female college student charging a male college student for rape. The story was that the female came over to the male’s dorm room very drunk and came onto him strongly. He turned her down several times and offered to take her back to her dorm room. He finally gave in and had sex with her. She charged him with rape because she was drunk at the time. Give me a break, she was the sexual aggressor. IMHO if this had ended with the Male getting a rape conviction then YES this is defiantly the “victims” fault. (I’m very hazy on the facts for this one so if anyone has a proper cite, please post it) It’s beginning to seem like guys will have to have signed notarized forms in triplicate just to be safe. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/33 "2002-12-30T22:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monica \* > \*\*On the topic of rape in general: I took a class called Think Tank, in which we debated current issues. One of the issues was rape. A few of the guys in my class were absolutely convinced that rape was the girl’s fault. They said that it is the woman’s fault for going into an unsafe environment, or for wearing revealing clothing. They said that wearing such outfits was “asking for it,” and that the rapist could not control himself. I disagreed with them, but what are your thoughts? \*\* My first thought - anyone who says “The rapist just couldn’t control himself” is a scary, scary person who should be watched closely. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/34 "2002-12-30T22:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Whuckfistle_ > Was Mary raped? > [@](#): > > _UDS_ > No. She consented. (“Be it done unto me according to thy word.”)[ > > This exchange between Mary and the Archangel Gabriel is the subject of about a hundrem million painting, icons, frescos and what have you. One of the cardinal points of the Incarnation story is that Mary consented. > > The message? Even God has to take “no” for an answer. Sorry it took so long to answer you, **Whuck** , I sort of forgot about this thread. > [@](#): > > _Luke 1:26-38_ > 26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” > 29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.” > 34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” > 35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[3] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God.” > 38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her. Gabriel wasn’t really _asking_ her anything. He was coldly informing her that God wanted some, and that was the end of it. He kept saying “you will…” not “will you?” Having said that, my post in the other thread was part of obviously facetious tirade and maybe I went too far with that particular line. I apologize for any offense. And for an honest answer to your question, do I think Mary was raped? No, I think she had consensual sex with her husband. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/35 "2002-12-30T23:19:00Z")
Rape is the only crime in which the victim is sometimes blamed for it. Take stabbing (as another poster said), I don’t imagine the perp saying that “she asked for it”, “she obviously wanted it” or “she enjoyed it” (unless she was truly a sick, sick woman). The distinction betwen rape and other type of assaults probably originates in the fact that when done consensually (and right) sex is pleasurable for _both_ involved, not so with stabbing for example, the perp may try to convinced other people or himself that the victim trully wanted/enjoyed it. And there is that old belief that women really want to be raped, even if they don’t admit it (obviously a lie). But, however you put it, if it is rape it is not the victim’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![BioHazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@BioHazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BioHazard)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/36 "2002-12-30T23:27:50Z")
**Mighty\_Girl** Let’s take my point #2 as a hypothetical case because I can’t find any cites for it. She was the aggressor and pretty much pressured him into sex. Was that not her fault for the “rape”? ---
**Author:** ![BioHazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@BioHazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BioHazard)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/37 "2002-12-30T23:29:28Z")
I would do a google search for that court case but I’m at work and you can imagine what type of websites that search would find. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/38 "2002-12-30T23:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BioHazard \* > \*\ ***Mighty\_Girl** > > Let’s take my point #2 as a hypothetical case because I can’t find any cites for it. She was the aggressor and pretty much pressured him into sex. Was that not her fault for the “rape”? \*\* uhmm if she was the aggressoe, wouldnt that make her the rapist? :smack: yeah its her fault then. …😕 how do you “pressure” a guy into sex? _flash a tit_ OK YOU FORCED ME INTO IT!! WAAAH I’m so WEAK!! A drunk 250 lb guy rushes a 165 lb guy with a knife. lil guy stabs big guy. I’d say that was the victims fault. AAAHHH MIND GOING BERZERK!! God can do no wrong. If he got joseph pregnant, it still wouldnt be rape. If God wanted to impregnate a whole country, God wouldnt need anyone’s permission. God being the highest authority in the universe can do what God wants with anyone and anything. If you called it rape, which court would you take God to and upon whose authority would you do it with? God has the power of Life and death for heavens sake! Dont you think he also has the power over sex? The angel’s proclamation was a formality. Mary couldve chosen to say no but it that happned we would be saying prayers like “Hail Salome, full of grace…” and be asking, who the heck is mary?? ---
**Author:** ![BioHazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@BioHazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BioHazard)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/39 "2002-12-30T23:44:33Z")
Ok I did the search. After playing the “Kill Popups” game for a while this is the best I could do for a cite: [http://www.ocolly.okstate.edu/issues/1997\_Spring/970321/Stories/daterape.html](http://www.ocolly.okstate.edu/issues/1997_Spring/970321/Stories/daterape.html) Still looking into it. ---
**Author:** ![BioHazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@BioHazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BioHazard)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663/40 "2002-12-30T23:56:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*uhmm if she was the aggressoe, wouldnt that make her the rapist? :smack: yeah its her fault then. > > …😕 how do you “pressure” a guy into sex? I’d say in a similar way that a guy would pressure a girl. Here’s an example: Drunk Girl: Hiii baaaby lets get it onnn. _girl kisses guy_ _guy pushes girl off_ Guy: You’re drunk Drunk Girl: Soooo? Letts f\*\*\* _girl kisses guy_ _guy pushes girl off_ Guy: NO! Come back when you’re sober and Hell Yah I will! But not when You’re drunk Drunk Girl: Oh Comon I cant wait that long I want sex NOW! _girl gets on top of guy_ _guy pushes girl off_ Guy: Look, you’re drunk. come back later. _girl acts very sad_ Drunk Girl: You don’t like me _sniff_ I know im really ugly etc. etc. Please? I really really want it Guy: Ah Hell, why not. _jumps in bed_ I know, I shouldn’t quit my day job, but you get the point. And yes I’ve had girls pressure me into having sex with them before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-r-pe-be-the-victims-fault/145663.md?page=3)