# Can republicans really just declare themselves the winner in state elections **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 26, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683 "2021-12-26T20:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/1 "2021-12-26T20:42:57Z")
so I know Republicans in state governments are taking power away from the secretary of state to give it to the (republican) legislature to oversee elections. can the gop legislature just hand elections to Republicans based on non existent fraud? like if in Georgia if the Democrat wins an election by 23000 votes can the legislature just say ‘23001 votes were fraudulent, all of them for the Democrat’ with no evidence and appoint the republican a winner? i mean, there’s more checks and balances than that right? I would really hope there are. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/2 "2021-12-26T20:45:25Z")
I don’t know. All I can really say is that’s what the republicans really hope to be able to do. Driving current elections workers to quit because of the threats of violence and death is fully within the scope of their plans. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/3 "2021-12-26T20:56:48Z")
The only things stopping them are a basic sense of honor or decency, along with a respect for the people represented in the democratic process. So, nothing is stopping them. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/4 "2021-12-26T21:04:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, nothing is stopping them. Legally, maybe. But overturn the results of one major election, and I see blood flowing freely in the state houses. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/5 "2021-12-26T21:06:16Z")
“Can” they? Certainly any attempt by a Republican legislature to invalidate tens of thousands of votes on the basis of no evidence would be challenged in federal court as an equal protection violation. The counter argument would be that the Constitution gives state legislatures the authority to determine how its presidential electors are to be determined. So it would come down to how effective Trump was at seeding the federal judiciary in his four years. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/6 "2021-12-26T21:07:46Z")
The current Supreme Court would rule this a “political matter”. In other words, if you don’t like the legislature throwing your votes out, then vote out the legislature. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/7 "2021-12-26T21:15:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The current Supreme Court would rule this a “political matter”. In other words, if you don’t like the legislature throwing your votes out, then vote out the legislature.  I dunno. Their hobbyhorses seem to be outlawing abortion and expanding deeply held religious convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/8 "2021-12-27T04:46:33Z")
Yeah. The supreme court seems to be on track to rule pretty much anything constitutional as long as it benefits conservatives and republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/9 "2021-12-27T05:52:14Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Legally, maybe. But overturn the results of one major election, and I see blood flowing freely in the state houses. The possible outcomes are asymmetric. If the Democrat wins, however honestly or not, the Republican masses will riot and the blood will flow. If the Republican wins, however honestly or not, the Democratis masses will moan a little bit and then mostly just roll over. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/10 "2021-12-27T06:19:53Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > The counter argument would be that the Constitution gives state legislatures the authority to determine how its presidential electors are to be determined. This is a completely different issue. Under Federal Law, the rules in effect at the time of Federal elections have to be followed. So yes, if the law was enacted before the election, a legislature could rewrite their state law to have them select the electors, or the governor could select them, or a number of random registered voters equal to the number of EVs could be selected. If, as the OP posits, all of the election rules were followed and the legislature changed the results in defiance of the established law, I suspect that would be thrown out almost immediately when the winner/now-loser took it to court. The real question is would the candidate have Federal standing if state election rules are violated this way. The other question is what happens when all of the Judges and all of the Justices ignore the law in favor of politics. You have all read stories of corrupt judges at the city, state and even Federal level; so what happens in those cases? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/11 "2021-12-27T06:21:21Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > The possible outcomes are asymmetric. If the Democrat wins, however honestly or not, the Republican masses will riot and the blood will flow. Because that happened in the Georgia senate races, right? I’ll ask for your cite. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/12 "2021-12-27T07:43:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The current Supreme Court would rule this a “political matter”. In other words, if you don’t like the legislature throwing your votes out, then vote out the legislature. How does work again? The best way to stop someone from invalidating your vote is to vote them out? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/13 "2021-12-27T08:07:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Because that happened in the Georgia senate races, right? I’ll ask for your cite. No, because we’re predicting what may happen in the _next_ election or several elections. Where Republicans control the legislatures, they appear to be all gung-ho for passing new laws to make sure the Georgia senate races don’t happen like that again. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/14 "2021-12-27T10:49:29Z")
That’s the definition of a Catch-22, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/15 "2021-12-27T15:15:36Z")
Yep, just like gerrymandering. If you don’t like being disenfranchised, vote for people who won’t disenfranchise you. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/16 "2021-12-27T16:11:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > This is a completely different issue. Under Federal Law, the rules in effect at the time of Federal elections have to be followed. The Constitution provides that, “Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors . . .”. It also provides that, “The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors . . .” which Congress has done by establishing a national Election Day through federal statutes. That’s traditionally been interpreted the way you say – states have to adhere to the process they have in place on Election Day. But it’s notable that federal law includes a “failed election” exception, which states that, “Whenever any state has held an election for the purpose of choosing electors, and has failed to make a choice on the day prescribed by law, the electors may be appointed on a subsequent day in such a manner as the legislature of such state may direct.” It’s never been tested what it means for a state to have “failed to make a choice”. Just to be clear, I wholeheartedly agree with your interpretation and the “failed election” clause is clearly meant to account for something like a natural disaster. But in this Brave New World of conservative jurisprudence, I wouldn’t take anything for granted. In concurrences in _Democratic National Committee v Wisconsin State Legislature_, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh expressed some expansive views of state legislatures’ authority regarding elections (although awarding of EPs was not at issue). Barrett was not yet on the Court at that point, so we can’t know what she may have thought. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/17 "2021-12-27T16:33:19Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So yes, if the law was enacted before the election, a legislature could rewrite their state law to have them select the electors, or the governor could select them, or a number of random registered voters equal to the number of EVs could be selected. This is the concern… Though I don’t think this is happening, yet. The tactic they are currently attempting is to twist things around before the votes are counted. > **[10 new state laws shift power over elections to partisan entities](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dozen-state-laws-shift-power-elections-partisan-entities/story?id=79408455)** > > At least eight states have enacted 10 laws in 2021 that bolster partisan entities' power over elections or shift election responsibilities from the secretary of state. The hope from the right is that they can pass laws that allow them to disenfranchise the “wrong” sort of people, so that they get the votes they need. They aren’t yet making it so that the whole process of voting is moot. But theoretically it’s possible under the law, and I suspect that’d be the next step if their current efforts don’t get them the results they want. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/18 "2021-12-27T19:49:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How does work again? The best way to stop someone from invalidating your vote is to vote them out? You’ll have to ask Chief Justice Roberts: > **[Chief Justice Roberts’s lifelong crusade against voting rights, explained](https://www.vox.com/21211880/supreme-court-chief-justice-john-roberts-voting-rights-act-election-2020)** > > He has fought to undermine voting rights his entire career. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/19 "2021-12-27T20:01:25Z")
For at least a half century before the 1960s, SCOTUS declined to get involved in voting rights. I know for a fact that my home state of PA had not redistricted since 1900 despite a clear mandate in its constitution that it do so after every election. The constitution also limited the number of state legislative districts in any one county, although this mattered only to Philly and Alleghany (Pittsburgh). And the court called this a political question, none of their business. If Philly and Pittsburgh didn’t like it, let them elect representatives to change it. Huh? Now they’re saying, you don’t like the gerrymander? Elect enough representatives to change it. Utterly illogical. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683/20 "2021-12-27T20:13:28Z")
I don’t think SCOTUS can stay out of it forever. 1. State legislature monkeys with the voting process so that certain people can’t be voted out. 2. People try to vote them out but can’t because the voting process is neutered. 3. SCOTUS says, “This is a local issue, elect better representatives to fix it.” Something is going to bust eventually. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-republicans-really-just-declare-themselves-the-winner-in-state-elections/956683.md?page=2)