# Can right and left agree on anything? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094 "2017-11-19T19:28:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/261 "2017-11-22T21:17:46Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Interesting question asked on Townhall: Do Conservatives And Liberals Have Enough in Common to Keep A Country Together Anymore? > > This excerpt lays out several of the fundamental differences and they are big ones. I’m not sure if the bridge can be gapped in my lifetime. > [https://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2017/11/18/do-conservatives-and-liberals-have-enough-in-common-to-keep-a-country-together-anymore-n2411206?utm\_source=thdaily&utm\_medium=email&utm\_campaign=nl&newsletterad=](https://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2017/11/18/do-conservatives-and-liberals-have-enough-in-common-to-keep-a-country-together-anymore-n2411206?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=) > > So, what’s your answer to the question that Townhall asks? The so called “answers” they attributed to liberals are fucking bullshit lies, for starters. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/262 "2017-11-22T21:35:26Z")
The problems, then, aren’t necessarily between liberal and conservatives as they are, but rather how they perceive each other to be. Self-perception factors into that as well. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/263 "2017-11-22T21:44:23Z")
I’ve given up on trying to agree with conservatives because they don’t believe in facts. There’s no way to start a debate or dialogue when people enter into a discussion with two separate views of reality. I can still try to be friends with conservatives, as long as we don’t try to discuss or debate politics. The only way this will change is for a reckoning by conservatives that forces them to acknowledge that one can run away from truth, but they can’t always escape the consequences. This country needs a collective experience that will bring us together and make conservatives realize that a society functions best when it abandons social Darwinism and embraces a world based more on cooperation than competition. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/264 "2017-11-22T21:50:44Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I’ve given up on trying to agree with conservatives because they don’t believe in facts. There’s no way to start a debate or dialogue when people enter into a discussion with two separate views of reality. I can still try to be friends with conservatives, as long as we don’t try to discuss or debate politics. The only way this will change is for a reckoning by conservatives that forces them to acknowledge that one can run away from truth, but they can’t always escape the consequences. This country needs a collective experience that will bring us together and make conservatives realize that a society functions best when it abandons social Darwinism and embraces a world based more on cooperation than competition. Not all conservatives, blah blah blah (only somewhat in jest – there are indeed some conservatives who can reasonably discuss politics, just as there are unreasonable liberals)… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/265 "2017-11-22T21:53:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This country needs a collective experience that will bring us together and make conservatives realize that a society functions best when it abandons social Darwinism and embraces a world based more on cooperation than competition. I think you’re screwed, then. The pervasiveness of the internet means unity is even less likely than after September 11, 2001, and even if something even more horrific occurred, it’ll just push your extremists even more extreme. You may as well call it a day, break the country up into ten to twenty daughter-nations. It was a good attempt, nothing to be ashamed of. Take a lap and hit the shower. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/266 "2017-11-22T22:09:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think you’re screwed, then. The pervasiveness of the internet means unity is even less likely than after September 11, 2001, and even if something even more horrific occurred, it’ll just push your extremists even more extreme. > > You may as well call it a day, break the country up into ten to twenty daughter-nations. It was a good attempt, nothing to be ashamed of. Take a lap and hit the shower. Is that what we need, at this point, a divorce? The civil war was the south not only trying to leave without permission, but to also take resources from the federal govt without permission as well. Maybe the republicans can’t get a legislative bill passed to save their sorry careers, but maybe they could get a separation bill passed. No one has ever said that a state can’t leave the union, just that it can’t leave without permission from congress. Well, the majority party in congress is currently made up of people from the states that seem to complain the most about being linked to the more populous and prosperous liberal leaning states. If they want to go, I got no problem with that. Don’t know if we need to go to 10-20, but splitting in two may become necessary, so that the south can keep its traditions of racism, guns, and religious law, and the blue states can keep their traditions of equality and prosperity. Both sides will be better off after the split. The blue states will save an enormous amount of money that is no longer being funneled into the red states, and the red states can be free from a government so they can wallow in their poverty. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/267 "2017-11-23T00:03:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The pervasiveness of the internet means unity is even less likely than after September 11, 2001, and even if something even more horrific occurred, it’ll just push your extremists even more extreme. Actually, we are simply returning to the (lack of) unity prevalent for the first 150 years. Until the rise of national radio networks, (Mutual, Columbia, and RCA Red and Blue), followed by re-organizations and the consolidation of news into television (as the three latter networks defined themselves as CBS, NBC, and ABC), most medium to large cities had many competing newspapers with each one championing a particular political slant. Folks who grew up in a time when nearly all news arrived through one of the three big TV networks are not familiar with the extremist partisanship displayed in local papers. (By the time we came along, even the competing newspapers had begun to mitigate their stances so as to not get too far out of step from the TV networks.) (Ironically,with the rise of cable and, later, the internet, folks who were unaware of history predicted a new, wonderful world of multiple sources of information, (true as far as it goes), without realizing the unintended consequence of the Balkanization of news sources and divisive opinions.) We survived the first 150 years of factionalism, even with the major interruption of the Civil War, and we will probably survive a bit longer. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/268 "2017-11-23T00:09:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Is that what we need, at this point, a divorce? > > The civil war was the south not only trying to leave without permission, but to also take resources from the federal govt without permission as well. > > Maybe the republicans can’t get a legislative bill passed to save their sorry careers, but maybe they could get a separation bill passed. No one has ever said that a state can’t leave the union, just that it can’t leave without permission from congress. Well, the majority party in congress is currently made up of people from the states that seem to complain the most about being linked to the more populous and prosperous liberal leaning states. If they want to go, I got no problem with that. > > Don’t know if we need to go to 10-20, but splitting in two may become necessary, so that the south can keep its traditions of racism, guns, and religious law, and the blue states can keep their traditions of equality and prosperity. Both sides will be better off after the split. The blue states will save an enormous amount of money that is no longer being funneled into the red states, and the red states can be free from a government so they can wallow in their poverty. It’s sort of pathetic that people promote the fallacy that states, or most political boundaries, are homogeneous. Civil war wouldn’t go the way you’d hope. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/269 "2017-11-23T01:00:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s sort of pathetic that people promote the fallacy that states, or most political boundaries, are homogeneous. Civil war wouldn’t go the way you’d hope. He’s not talking about civil war. He’s talking about something closer to Brexit. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/270 "2017-11-23T01:02:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s sort of pathetic that people promote the fallacy that states, or most political boundaries, are homogeneous. Civil war wouldn’t go the way you’d hope. Why are you promoting a civil war? I am asking only if it is time that we recognize our irreconcilable differences and make a peaceful and equitable split in order to avoid a violent split. I don’t want a war, but at the same time, I don’t want to live under a christian theocracy where racism and bigotry rule, and science and facts are considered inconvenient distractions. I simply point out that the party that celebrates the confederacy and that which it stood for is currently in power, and if they wanted to make their state’s right’s as strong as they wanted, they have the option of dissolving our union, allowing the states that see cooperation as being more beneficial than animosity to work together for prosperity, while all the states that are more concerned about their ideological notion of “freedom” to make their own way as they will. I will say that it is attitude like those expressed in your posts, of deliberate misunderstanding so that you can take a hostile approach, that is driving a wedge between our people, so you are part of the problem, you are part of the reason that our country cannot hold itself together. Is this something that you intend, something that makes you proud, that you do your little part to harm our country? I said nothing like what you decided to respond to, and yet, you feel that your hostility is appropriate due to your deliberate misunderstanding. I know that destruction is easier than creation, but is it really that much more fulfilling to you that you would dedicate even a small amount of your energies in that direction? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/271 "2017-11-23T01:07:00Z")
As long as the South doesn’t get _any_ nukes…ever. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/272 "2017-11-23T01:25:39Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > As long as the South doesn’t get _any_ nukes…ever. Just make sure that every nuke comes with a case of beer. We’ll be fine. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/273 "2017-11-23T03:41:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He’s not talking about civil war. He’s talking about something closer to Brexit. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why are you promoting a civil war? I am asking only if it is time that we recognize our irreconcilable differences and make a peaceful and equitable split in order to avoid a violent split. I don’t want a war, but at the same time, I don’t want to live under a christian theocracy where racism and bigotry rule, and science and facts are considered inconvenient distractions. I simply point out that the party that celebrates the confederacy and that which it stood for is currently in power, and if they wanted to make their state’s right’s as strong as they wanted, they have the option of dissolving our union, allowing the states that see cooperation as being more beneficial than animosity to work together for prosperity, while all the states that are more concerned about their ideological notion of “freedom” to make their own way as they will. > > I will say that it is attitude like those expressed in your posts, of deliberate misunderstanding so that you can take a hostile approach, that is driving a wedge between our people, so you are part of the problem, you are part of the reason that our country cannot hold itself together. Is this something that you intend, something that makes you proud, that you do your little part to harm our country? I said nothing like what you decided to respond to, and yet, you feel that your hostility is appropriate due to your deliberate misunderstanding. > > I know that destruction is easier than creation, but is it really that much more fulfilling to you that you would dedicate even a small amount of your energies in that direction? Civil war would be a natural consequence of secession. I’m not even being hostile. I’m just being to the point. In what way could non homogenous states and cities secede without tremendous passions being unleashed? Going from the most powerful nation in history into a group of perpetually bickering factions would be a terrible error. You think foreign trolling in domestic affairs is bad now? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/274 "2017-11-23T04:05:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s sort of pathetic that people promote the fallacy that states, or most political boundaries, are homogeneous. **Civil war wouldn’t go the way you’d hope.** Bolding mine. “you’d hope”. Well, I won’t call that a threat, but it’s close. Didn’t go so well for the people that held on to racist bigoted ideals last time did it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/275 "2017-11-23T04:25:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Civil war would be a natural consequence of secession. Not if everyone secedes at the same time. > [@](#): > > Going from the most powerful nation in history into a group of perpetually bickering factions would be a terrible error. The former Soviets managed, mostly, and they were arguably the most powerful in history. > [@](#): > > You think foreign trolling in domestic affairs is bad now? Well, after the dissolution, the new countries will have to manage their own domestic policies. I predict a return of sundown towns. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/276 "2017-11-23T04:31:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, Clothy himself is an atheist, and has mocked people with religious beliefs. So he, of all people, shouldn’t be accusing liberals of sneering at “Judeo-Christian values”. Wrong again, as usual. I am agnostic. And asking people who make claims about a god of some sort to show proof of the existence of said god is by no means mocking them. And where/how exactly did I claim that liberals sneer at “Judeo-Christian values”? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/277 "2017-11-23T04:35:13Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Wrong again, as usual. I am agnostic. And asking people who make claims about a god of some sort to show proof of the existence of said god is by no means mocking them. And where/how exactly did I claim that liberals sneer at “Judeo-Christian values”? From the quote in your OP. > [@](#): > > Liberals mock Judeo-Christian values. What’s wrong? Didn’t read the bullshit you posted? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/278 "2017-11-23T04:42:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Starving Artist will probably crow that you’re wrong about this, therefore you’re wrong about everything, so in anticipation of that: > > SA was defending Joe Paterno, who was accused of turning a blind eye to and therefore enabling the predatory behaviour of Jerry Sandusky who, according to eyewitness Mike McQueary, sexually assaulted a child in Penn State shower room in 2001. SA never expressed doubt that the assault (or Sandusky’s numerous other assaults) took place or that Sandusky was guilty (that I can recall), but on the very specific charge of “child rape” on that very specific occasion, he suggested physical impossibility, bolstered by his now-infamous cardboard-tube test, on the grounds that if people were wrong about an act of “child rape” on that occasion, they must be wrong about everything, including Paterno. > > As I recall, Starving Artist seemed quite pleased every time the phrase “child rape” was used because he cheerfully and repeatedly pointed out that Sandusky was not specifically convicted of rape, therefore anyone using the phrase was wrong to do so, and by implication, wrong about everything, including Paterno who is therefore and somehow exonerated. Heh. If the standard is that being demonstrably wrong automatically makes one wrong about everything, **Starving Artist** hasn’t got a leg to stand on. After 14 years of starving, he ought to have shuffled off this mortal coil and joined the choir invisible quite some time ago. That he still posts demonstrates that he’s wrong about starving, therefore he’s wrong about everything. Q.E.D. (Not that the syllogism is necessary to come to such a conclusion about his wrongness.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/279 "2017-11-23T04:42:06Z")
You raise a valid point, running coach. So far we’ve been assuming that Clothy agrees with the conservative as described in the list. Maybe, just maybe, he’s actually one of the _liberals_. Did anyone think to ask that? I thought not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094/280 "2017-11-23T04:51:38Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Heh. If the standard is that being demonstrably wrong automatically makes one wrong about everything, **Starving Artist** hasn’t got a leg to stand on. After 14 years of starving, he ought to have shuffled off this mortal coil and joined the choir invisible quite some time ago. That he still posts demonstrates that he’s wrong about starving, therefore he’s wrong about everything. Q.E.D. > > (Not that the syllogism is necessary to come to such a conclusion about his wrongness.) Starving Artist (and Bricker) have sensitized me to a technique I call “lying by specificity”. If their objections are consistently and narrowly phrased, I feel confident they’re clinging to a nitpick as an excuse to ignore the larger issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-right-and-left-agree-on-anything/802094.md?page=15)