# Can science disprove God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301 "2013-11-07T03:01:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/461 "2013-11-13T00:22:43Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > The rules were carved out on tablets about 1500 BC. However, we have these rules written in our hearts. We know killing an innocent person is wrong. Before people start quoting Bible verses, I would like to point out that people rebelling against God 3,000 years ago and now is also wrong. These points merit two responses. A major theme of the Odyssey is Odysseus being wracked with guilt for having the idea which caused Troy to be burned with massive slaughter. Oops - it isn’t. No one seemed to care too much about torching cities back then. Including God’s people - remember Jericho? None of this was justified by rebellion against God - because the Hebrews were not at all upset about people worshiping other Gods. Just don’t defect. In any case, it is not clear there was a law. Though Moses supposedly wrote the Torah, it does not get mentioned until much later until it gets conveniently “found”. Is it mentioned in Judges? In Joshua? In the stories of David and Solomon? Nope. The Ark is, but that is quite different. It is pretty clear that the Law didn’t even exist then. The writers of the Bible wrote beautiful stuff, but logic was not one of their strong points. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/462 "2013-11-13T06:21:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The Exodus never happened. But even if it did, not long after “Thou shalt not commit murder” God order the slaughter of a tribe that got in the way. So the definition of murder seems a bit flexible. It’s OK if God kills people, [he’s the good guy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma) ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/463 "2013-11-13T22:19:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The Big Bang - in general terms - is reasonably close to a fact. My friend Arno demonstrated that. In particular, the theory made predictions which turned out to be fulfilled. > > I discovered in reviewing the texts that the ones for the continuation school - pregnant girls and students kicked out of their regular schools - were much worse than the other ones. They may have oversimplified too much. ‘Reasonably close’, how? Cosmic microwave background radiation maps show an inhomogenous universe, with giant voids and clusters of galaxies. This runs completely counter to the predictions of the big bang model (homogenous universe). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/464 "2013-11-13T22:23:19Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > ‘Reasonably close’, how? Cosmic microwave background radiation maps show an inhomogenous universe, with giant voids and clusters of galaxies. This runs completely counter to the predictions of the big bang model (homogenous universe). According to who? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/465 "2013-11-13T22:27:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > These points merit two responses. A major theme of the Odyssey is Odysseus being wracked with guilt for having the idea which caused Troy to be burned with massive slaughter. > Oops - it isn’t. No one seemed to care too much about torching cities back then. Including God’s people - remember Jericho? > None of this was justified by rebellion against God - because the Hebrews were not at all upset about people worshiping other Gods. Just don’t defect. > > In any case, it is not clear there was a law. Though Moses supposedly wrote the Torah, it does not get mentioned until much later until it gets conveniently “found”. Is it mentioned in Judges? In Joshua? In the stories of David and Solomon? Nope. The Ark is, but that is quite different. It is pretty clear that the Law didn’t even exist then. > > The writers of the Bible wrote beautiful stuff, but logic was not one of their strong points. Red Herring. Rebelling against God does justify destruction, there is no way around that. The tablets are recorded in Exodus, Numbers, all throughout the Torah and afterwards. Joshua re-recorded the laws as well. I see how you mentioned logic but avoided my question about when you think logic was established. Before humans or not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/466 "2013-11-13T22:29:35Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Red Herring. > > Rebelling against God does justify destruction, there is no way around that. The tablets are recorded in Exodus, Numbers, all throughout the Torah and afterwards. Joshua re-recorded the laws as well. > > I see how you mentioned logic but avoided my question about when you think logic was established. Before humans or not? logic isn’t established-logic is _discovered_. It is a mapping of the way things work. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/467 "2013-11-13T22:31:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > According to who? CMB maps > **[Planck satellite creates most detailed map ever of cosmic microwave...](https://www.engadget.com/2013-03-22-planck-satellite-cosmic-microwave-background.html)** > > The European Space Agency's Planck satellite has been gathering data since its launch in 2009, slowly building up a map of the cosmic microwave background radiation -- a distant remnant of the Big Bang. The resulting image, seen above, is the most... ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/468 "2013-11-13T22:32:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > logic isn’t established-logic is _discovered_. It is a mapping of the way things work. So the law of Non-Contradiction wasn’t around until humans ‘discovered’ it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/469 "2013-11-13T22:39:50Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > So the law of Non-Contradiction wasn’t around until humans ‘discovered’ it? Noooo…the “Law of Non-Contradiction” was not understood and named until humans understood and named it. Things will work they way they will work, god or no god, and when we find out how something works sometimes we put a name to that understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/470 "2013-11-13T22:42:15Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > CMB maps > > [Planck satellite creates most detailed map ever of cosmic microwave background radiation](http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/22/planck-satellite-cosmic-microwave-background/) No. Who told you that that map is evidence of what you claim? What site interpreted it to mean what you think it means? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/471 "2013-11-13T22:47:35Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > CMB maps > > [Planck satellite creates most detailed map ever of cosmic microwave background radiation](http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/22/planck-satellite-cosmic-microwave-background/) Your own link says that the temperature fluctuations between hemispheres were more extreme than had been predicted. Using logic, we can work backward and understand that this means _temperature fluctuations were predicted_. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/472 "2013-11-13T23:13:34Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > ‘Reasonably close’, how? Cosmic microwave background radiation maps show an inhomogenous universe, with giant voids and clusters of galaxies. This runs completely counter to the predictions of the big bang model (homogenous universe). > [@reef\_shark](#): > > CMB maps > > [Planck satellite creates most detailed map ever of cosmic microwave background radiation](http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/22/planck-satellite-cosmic-microwave-background/) You need to learn to understand what you are reading before your post your errors for everyone to see. You have not provided an example of a prediction of a homogeneous universe; you linked to a map that shows that it is not homogeneous. Since few of us have ever heard of anyone predicting a homogeneous universe, Czarcasm asked you for an example of a claim for a homogeneous universe. Of course the universe is not homogeneous. I know of no one who believes that it is. So. Show us a scientific prediction that the universe is homogeneous. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/473 "2013-11-13T23:27:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You need to learn to understand what you are reading before your post your errors for everyone to see. > > You have not provided an example of a prediction of a homogeneous universe; you linked to a map that shows that it is not homogeneous. Since few of us have ever heard of anyone predicting a homogeneous universe, Czarcasm asked you for an example of a claim for a homogeneous universe. > > Of course the universe is not homogeneous. I know of no one who believes that it is. > So. Show us a scientific prediction that the universe is homogeneous. Further - it must be part of the ‘Big Bang’ theory, since that was his first statement. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/474 "2013-11-13T23:37:52Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > Rebelling against God does justify destruction, there is no way around that. :dubious: “God is evil/wrong/nonexistent, therefore it is just to rebel against him.” There, I “got around that” quite easily. It’s not “written in our hearts” that rebelling against your god is wrong; only a minority of humanity has ever even believed in him. > [@tomndebb](#): > > You have not provided an example of a prediction of a homogeneous universe; you linked to a map that shows that it is not homogeneous. Since few of us have ever heard of anyone predicting a homogeneous universe, Czarcasm asked you for an example of a claim for a homogeneous universe. > > Of course the universe is not homogeneous. I know of no one who believes that it is. > So. Show us a scientific prediction that the universe is homogeneous. [Inflation theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_%28cosmology%29#Few_inhomogeneities_remain). However, **reef shark** isn’t talking about the kind of homogeneity that scientists are. The homogeneity that inflation explains is “why don’t we see spacetime defects like cosmic strings and domain walls, or antimatter galaxies, or half the mass of the universe as a black hole, or other major alterations in the nature of spacetime and matter?” Those voids and superclusters are local variations; but taken as a whole the observable universe is homogeneous, it looks like the same kind of universe everywhere we look. And in fact those voids and clusters appear to have developed from tiny variations in the early universe, not large ones; yes, there may be larger variations than predicted but that’s only “larger” in relative terms, not large in absolute terms. The homogeneity that has to be explained is why there _aren’t_ large differences; an inflationary Big Bang does that. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/475 "2013-11-14T23:29:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Noooo…the “Law of Non-Contradiction” was not understood and named until humans understood and named it. Things will work they way they will work, god or no god, and when we find out how something works sometimes we put a name to that understanding. So you admit that logic did not emerge with humans, it was around before us. Where do you think it came from? ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/476 "2013-11-14T23:32:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You need to learn to understand what you are reading before your post your errors for everyone to see. > > You have not provided an example of a prediction of a homogeneous universe; you linked to a map that shows that it is not homogeneous. Since few of us have ever heard of anyone predicting a homogeneous universe, Czarcasm asked you for an example of a claim for a homogeneous universe. > > Of course the universe is not homogeneous. I know of no one who believes that it is. > So. Show us a scientific prediction that the universe is homogeneous. That was the original prediction of the big bang model. It has since been altered to account for additional scientific discoveries (inflationary theory). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/477 "2013-11-14T23:32:51Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > So you admit that logic did not emerge with humans, it was around before us. Where do you think it came from? It was a package deal-it came with the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/478 "2013-11-14T23:33:16Z")
> [@reef\_shark](#): > > So you admit that logic did not emerge with humans, it was around before us. Where do you think it came from? Nowhere; it always existed, as far as it can be said to exist at all. Before you can make claims about where logic came from you need to demonstrate that it’s _possible_ for it to have not existed. ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/479 "2013-11-14T23:38:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Your own link says that the temperature fluctuations between hemispheres were more extreme than had been predicted. Using logic, we can work backward and understand that this means _temperature fluctuations were predicted_. Here is what the link says: 'Asymmetry and cold spot Another is an asymmetry in the average temperatures on opposite hemispheres of the sky. This runs counter to the prediction made by the standard model that the Universe should be broadly similar in any direction we look. Furthermore, a cold spot extends over a patch of sky that is much larger than expected. The asymmetry and the cold spot had already been hinted at with Planck’s predecessor, NASA’s WMAP mission, but were largely ignored because of lingering doubts about their cosmic origin. “The fact that Planck has made such a significant detection of these anomalies erases any doubts about their reality; it can no longer be said that they are artefacts of the measurements. They are real and we have to look for a credible explanation,” says Paolo Natoli of the University of Ferrara, Italy. “Imagine investigating the foundations of a house and finding that parts of them are weak. You might not know whether the weaknesses will eventually topple the house, but you’d probably start looking for ways to reinforce it pretty quickly all the same,” adds François Bouchet of the Institut d’Astrophysique de Paris. One way to explain the anomalies is to propose that the Universe is in fact not the same in all directions on a larger scale than we can observe. In this scenario, the light rays from the CMB may have taken a more complicated route through the Universe than previously understood, resulting in some of the unusual patterns observed today. “Our ultimate goal would be to construct a new model that predicts the anomalies and links them together. But these are early days; so far, we don’t know whether this is possible and what type of new physics might be needed. And that’s exciting,” says Professor Efstathiou.’ ---
**Author:** ![reef\_shark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@reef\_shark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reef_shark)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/480 "2013-11-14T23:48:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nowhere; it always existed, as far as it can be said to exist at all. Before you can make claims about where logic came from you need to demonstrate that it’s _possible_ for it to have not existed. I cited the Law of Non-Contradiction. Is it possible for that not to exist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301.md?page=25)