# Can science disprove God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301 "2013-11-07T03:01:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/101 "2013-11-07T23:49:01Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Well this raises another question…is all knowledge limited to stuff that can be sensed? i.e. empirical? > back on junior high school, we all learned about abstract nouns; justice, love, etc. I can demonstrate the existence of immaterial things like justice or love by observing the effects they have on the world. I can set up a situation where one outcome will happen if love is present and a different outcome will happen if it is not. And by this test, I can find out whether or not love is in the air. Can a similar test be made about God? My understanding of your argument is that there is no way to tell whether or not God exists. Let me ask you a few questions: 1. Do you believe God exists? 2. Do you believe Zeus exists? 3. If the answer to 1 is yes and 2 is no, what evidence do you have for your beliefs? 4. If you do not have evidence for your beliefs, why believe in God and not believe in Zeus? In other words, if you’re going to believe in one deity without any evidence, shouldn’t you believe in every deity? And if you don’t believe in every deity, why do you believe in some and not others when the evidence for any of them is equal? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/102 "2013-11-07T23:50:52Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So what kind of evidence would you be wanting to prove or disprove such a all-encompassing concept? It seems that all science is based on certain presuppositions. For instance, the principle of uniformity, the laws of logic, etc. Some call these the first principles of knowledge, sort of like the axioms in geometry. Science cannot prove these presuppositions. These assumptions are not provable via science. This is what philosophers do. I believe it is called metaphysics. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/103 "2013-11-07T23:52:04Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > But who can resist asking questions like: > > 1. where did we come from? > 2. why is there something rather than nothing? > 3. why is there morality? > 4. why is there intelligence? > 5. where are we going? > 6. why are we here? > > and btw…science is no help here at all. Neither is religion. Religion hasn’t answered any of the questions you just asked. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/104 "2013-11-07T23:52:23Z")
Some people call it metabation, too. Well, maybe just me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/105 "2013-11-07T23:53:00Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > I agree completely. This is well said. Good scientists would never claim to have disproven God. Yet, alot of atheists do believe that science has disproven God. no? No. I’ve been debating this topic on line for nearly 40 years, and I’ve observed only one atheist who claimed to be able to disprove God. And all the other atheists thought he was an idiot. You might want to try to support your claim a bit better. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/106 "2013-11-07T23:53:19Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > It seems that all science is based on certain presuppositions. For instance, the principle of uniformity, the laws of logic, etc. Some call these the first principles of knowledge, sort of like the axioms in geometry. Science cannot prove these presuppositions. These assumptions are not provable via science. > > This is what philosophers do. I believe it is called metaphysics. I believe that you thought that you could come in here and make vague statements about the supposed limitations of science without having to get into specifics. How’s that working out for you so far? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/107 "2013-11-07T23:58:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Neither is religion. Religion hasn’t answered any of the questions you just asked. Well religion has suggested answers but you obviously don’t believe them. Which then leads me to answer, how do you decide between truth claims? How do you make a decision? some people believe that all of matter came from mind. others believe that mind came from matter. How do you decide which is true? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/108 "2013-11-07T23:59:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No. I’ve been debating this topic on line for nearly 40 years, and I’ve observed only one atheist who claimed to be able to disprove God. And all the other atheists thought he was an idiot. > > You might want to try to support your claim a bit better. my understanding is that an atheist is a person who denies that God exists. an agnostic is someone who claims we can’t know. perhaps most atheists today are really agnostics.(?) ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/109 "2013-11-08T00:06:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can demonstrate the existence of immaterial things like justice or love by observing the effects they have on the world. I can set up a situation where one outcome will happen if love is present and a different outcome will happen if it is not. And by this test, I can find out whether or not love is in the air. ok…but this doesn’t tell us why love is good and hatred is evil. questions of morality are not scientific questions. no? and would you agree that the only kinds of thing we can know are things we can sense? i.e. scientific knowledge? > [@](#): > > Can a similar test be made about God? My understanding of your argument is that there is no way to tell whether or not God exists. I would use philosophical arguments to prove God’s existence. For example, one such argument would be that the reason there is now something instead of nothing is b/c there is a being who can bring stuff out of nothing. and that the reason people know that it’s wrong to cause people pain is b/c God made them that way. > [@](#): > > Let me ask you a few questions: > > 1. Do you believe God exists? > 2. Do you believe Zeus exists? > 3. If the answer to 1 is yes and 2 is no, what evidence do you have for your beliefs? > 4. If you do not have evidence for your beliefs, why believe in God and not believe in Zeus? 1. Yes. 2. No. 3. My non-belief in Zeus is based on my belief in the Bible, but that’s another topic. My belief in God is based on arguments like those above. 4. Good point. I do believe I have evidence for God’s existence, but it is not scientific evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/110 "2013-11-08T00:07:03Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > my understanding is that an atheist is a person who denies that God exists. an agnostic is someone who claims we can’t know. perhaps most atheists today are really agnostics.(?) You are changing the topic. Your OP was “Can science disprove God” and suggested that atheists were disproving the existence of God (or any god). I can deny that flying polka-dot unicorns exist without proving that they do not exist. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/111 "2013-11-08T00:07:14Z")
Deleted ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/112 "2013-11-08T00:10:19Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > My point is merely that science cannot disprove God. Religionists are making claims that are not accessible to scientists. What is interesting to me is how many people seem to believe that the only things we can know are those things that are scientifically provable. Maybe soneone got to this already, but in my opinion you are a) misstating the premise, and b) misstating what “many people seem to believe”. a) Science, so far as I know, does not seek to disprove God. Science has found no evidence for God, I’ll grant that, but that’s rather a different proposition. b) IMO, “many people seem to believe” that if there is no evidence for a certain thing, whether or not it exists or can be described is irrelevant. Again, that’s a bit different from what you claim. > [@](#): > > But who can resist asking questions like: > > 1. where did we come from? > 2. why is there something rather than nothing? > 3. why is there morality? > 4. why is there intelligence? > 5. where are we going? > 6. why are we here? > > and btw…science is no help here at all. Nonsense, science has been of enormous help in approaching accurate answers to these questions, even if they are not yet fully answered. I would have to say that if the sole answer to any of thes is “because God”, an entity for which I remind you there is no concrete evidence whatever, then that’s rather of less help than anything science may have provided to date. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/113 "2013-11-08T00:11:44Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > ok…but this doesn’t tell us why love is good and hatred is evil. questions of morality are not scientific questions. no? But altruism can be (and is) looked at scientifically. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/114 "2013-11-08T00:14:08Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > a) Science, so far as I know, does not seek to disprove God. Science has found no evidence for God, I’ll grant that, but that’s rather a different proposition. what would count as evidence for the existence of God? what would you expect to see if God really had created the world? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/115 "2013-11-08T00:16:19Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Nonsense, science has been of enormous help in approaching accurate answers to these questions, even if they are not yet fully answered. I would have to say that if the sole answer to any of thes is “because God”, an entity for which I remind you there is no concrete evidence whatever, then that’s rather of less help than anything science may have provided to date. How has science helped us to understand why it is evil to cause people pain? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/116 "2013-11-08T00:18:09Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > my understanding is that an atheist is a person who denies that God exists. an agnostic is someone who claims we can’t know. perhaps most atheists today are really agnostics.(?) No, an atheist lacks belief in god, and many actively believe that no gods exist. But believing in something and thinking it has been proven are two different things. As is very evident in this thread, one can hardly expect us to disprove a god you refuse to define. Some Gods (like trik-omni ones) are logically inconsistent and can be disproven that way, but that hardly covers all possible cases. Maybe there is a god who created the universe for some beings who lived and went into godhood 8 billion years ago, and we are just living in the remains of the universe created for them. How do you disprove that? And we better hope God doesn’t decide to do his spring cleaning. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/117 "2013-11-08T00:20:08Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > How has science helped us to understand why it is evil to cause people pain? Altruism. Or, to phrase it more traditionally, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. That does not require a belief in any deity. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/118 "2013-11-08T00:22:25Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > But altruism can be (and is) looked at scientifically. ok…I grant that scientists can study why some people are more altruistic than others, where this impulse comes from, why women are more or less altruistic than men, whether Americans are the most altruistic people, etc. But noone can use the scientific method to determine if altruism is good or evil. Why won’t anyone grant this point? It’s rather obvious…no? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/119 "2013-11-08T00:22:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course it is; it’s cosmology. And science and reason are possible because the universe isn’t purely random; it has laws and structure. > > And as always, this entire religious tangent is pointless since at most it just pushes the question back a step to “where did ‘God’ come from”? > > Even if that was true, philosophy isn’t religion. Religion is by its nature worthless, intellectually dead; it’s based on faith, not facts or reason. No knowledge can come from it. > > Nonsense. On the contrary, such a universe is necessary for mind to exist. Not the other way around. > > No, because gods are a ridiculous idea, less plausible than Santa Claus. One of the most ridiculous and blatantly false beliefs in human history; transparently nothing more than baseless wish fulfillment. Something that’s even obvious to most believers - as long as the god in question isn’t their god. Believers make fun of the ridiculous beliefs of other faiths all the time; they are just blind to the fact that their own religion is equally laughable. > > _“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you’ll understand why I dismiss yours.”_ – Steven Roberts > > Of course the vast majority of scientists don’t claim they’ve “refuted God”, for the simple reason religion is politically very powerful and accorded far more respect than it should be. It (and reason in general) clearly has however, over and over again; which is why believers have over time vastly altered their public definition. They’ve kept moving the goalposts, changing their definition of “God” until now they claim to believe in the abstract, formless, undetectable thing that is the official God that is brought up in these discussions. Good post. Let me expand on it: **cornopean** seems to think that being an atheist means that you think God has been disproved by science. But atheists don’t claim God has been ‘disproved’. Rather, they find the whole question to be not worthy of their time because there is no evidence at all that a God might exist. The only reason they have to debate it at all is because religionists keep dragging them back into the debate and forcing them to ‘justify’ their non-belief. I’m an atheist. That doesn’t mean I can state categorically that there is no God and that science has proven it: It means that the entire question is to me rather pointless and about as worthy of my time as speculating about the existence of Cthulhu, Loki, Baal, ghostly spirits, the Headless Horseman, or any number of other non evidence-based mythological creatures. The difference between atheism and agnosticism to me is that agnostics sit on the fence and say they’re really not sure. To me, this unjustifiably elevates the mystical to a position of equality with the non-mystical. I’m not agnostic about the existence of tiny fairies that hide my socks when I lose one. I don’t say, “Well, maybe fairies exist and maybe they don’t.” I also don’t say that science has unequivocally proven that my socks were not stolen by fairies. I say, “That’s silly, and it will remain silly until you can provide some evidence, because assertions without evidence are just a gigantic waste of time.” Reality and testability and the scientific method are the means by which I try to understand the universe. Faith doesn’t enter into it. I expect evidence for the claims people make, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A vague face burned into a piece of toast doesn’t cut it, nor does a vague assertion about order and complexity ‘requiring’ a God. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301/120 "2013-11-08T00:24:05Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > Altruism. Or, to phrase it more traditionally, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. That does not require a belief in any deity. Ok fine…but it is not a scientific question. right? Science can’t tell us if causing people pain is wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-science-disprove-god/673301.md?page=7)