# Can/should anything be done about US shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263 "2015-12-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/202 "2015-12-08T15:34:29Z")
> [@Drbeth](#): > > The number of guns per capita seems to have no correlation at all It’s no longer surprising to me how nimbly gun types can dance between “No duh there’s a correlation : higher crime makes people buy guns” to “there’s no correlation” to “more guns = less crime.” It’s not fair to expect you all to be intelligent about stats, I grant you that. But being consistent about your theoretical model doesn’t take any special knowledge or intelligence. It’s like you approach this subject from what your emotions want to be true, and spout stuff accordingly. Can you pick one theoretical explanation and stick with it for at least a day? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/203 "2015-12-08T15:49:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1788 and personal ownership of arms for self-defense has been a founding principle since that time. Yeah, if you’re in a militia. But I’ve noticed conservatives are very choosy about which parts of the Constitution they promote. The freedom-of-religion part is getting roundly dismissed among the anti-Muslim hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/204 "2015-12-08T16:53:30Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Yeah, if you’re in a militia. > > But I’ve noticed conservatives are very choosy about which parts of the Constitution they promote. The freedom-of-religion part is getting roundly dismissed among the anti-Muslim hysteria. Even as a member of a militia, you would still have an individual right to bear arms for self-defense. Unless you’re a felon or a loonie. Freedom-of-religion? Did you read the OP? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/205 "2015-12-08T16:58:24Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Yeah, if you’re in a militia. > > But I’ve noticed conservatives are very choosy about which parts of the Constitution they promote. The freedom-of-religion part is getting roundly dismissed among the anti-Muslim hysteria. Did you see that the GOP heavily censured Trump concerning his latest loony statement wrt not allowing Muslims into the US? And many of them used freedom of religion as the basis for their slams against what Trump was saying. From [here](http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/donald-trump-muslim-republicans-2016/index.html). So, when you say ‘conservatives’, you need to really specify that it’s the more loony ones who are saying dippy shit like that, not all. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/206 "2015-12-08T17:16:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Did you see that the GOP heavily censured Trump concerning his latest loony statement wrt not allowing Muslims into the US? And many of them used freedom of religion as the basis for their slams against what Trump was saying. From [here](http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/donald-trump-muslim-republicans-2016/index.html). So, when you say ‘conservatives’, you need to really specify that it’s the more loony ones who are saying dippy shit like that, not all. Mainstream politicians have generally expressed condemnation, but Trump is favored by 36% of Republican voters in the latest CNN poll. The next closest candidate is at 16%. Perhaps you could argue that this dominating level of support is coming from those who aren’t “true” conservatives, but the next question I would have involves Scotsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/207 "2015-12-08T17:39:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Mainstream politicians have generally expressed condemnation, but Trump is favored by 36% of Republican voters in the latest CNN poll. The next closest candidate is at 16%. Perhaps you could argue that this dominating level of support is coming from those who aren’t “true” conservatives, but the next question I would have involves Scotsmen. You don’t have to support 100% of Trump’s ideas to support Trump the candidate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/208 "2015-12-08T17:39:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s no longer surprising to me how nimbly gun types can dance between “No duh there’s a correlation : higher crime makes people buy guns” to “there’s no correlation” to “more guns = less crime.” > > It’s not fair to expect you all to be intelligent about stats, I grant you that. But being consistent about your theoretical model doesn’t take any special knowledge or intelligence. It’s like you approach this subject from what your emotions want to be true, and spout stuff accordingly. > > Can you pick one theoretical explanation and stick with it for at least a day? There’s no correlation between murder rates and gun ownership rates, internationally. True, high crime rates do make people fearful, thus they buy more guns. That doesnt result in more murders. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/209 "2015-12-08T17:40:48Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Yeah, if you’re in a militia. > > But I’ve noticed conservatives are very choosy about which parts of the Constitution they promote. The freedom-of-religion part is getting roundly dismissed among the anti-Muslim hysteria. SCOTUS says you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/210 "2015-12-08T17:47:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s no correlation between murder rates and gun ownership rates, internationally. > > True, high crime rates do make people fearful, thus they buy more guns. That doesnt result in more murders. You’re saying two different things and are apparently oblivious to that fact. If high crime rates make people buy guns, then those things would be correlated. Do you grasp that? But recntly, both you and Damuri Ajashi have proposed that these two things are entirely uncorrelated. Tell me you comprehend that you’re saying two different things here. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/211 "2015-12-08T17:49:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > SCOTUS says you’re wrong. Please cite SCOTUS saying that anti-Muslim hysteria is not drowning out freedom of religion among conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/212 "2015-12-08T17:50:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s no correlation between murder rates and gun ownership rates, internationally. For advanced countries, there [pretty clearly](http://tewksburylab.org/blog/2012/12/gun-violence-and-gun-ownership-lets-look-at-the-data/) is a correlation between gun ownership and gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/213 "2015-12-08T18:57:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For advanced countries, there [pretty clearly](http://tewksburylab.org/blog/2012/12/gun-violence-and-gun-ownership-lets-look-at-the-data/) is a correlation between gun ownership and gun violence. And yet the number of guns in the US has risen by a [hundred million](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/Self-Reported-Gun-Ownership-Highest-1993.aspx) since 1995 (and the number of [households with guns](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/05/guns-in-the-united-states-one-for-every-man-woman-and-child-and-then-some/) is the highest its been since 1993), and gun violence has [halved](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/) over that time frame. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/214 "2015-12-08T18:57:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For advanced countries, there [pretty clearly](http://tewksburylab.org/blog/2012/12/gun-violence-and-gun-ownership-lets-look-at-the-data/) is a correlation between gun ownership and gun violence. There’s the old red herring; “gun violence” again. In other news, people with swimming pools are more likey to drown at home. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/215 "2015-12-08T19:00:40Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Mainstream politicians have generally expressed condemnation, but Trump is favored by 36% of Republican voters in the latest CNN poll. The next closest candidate is at 16%. Perhaps you could argue that this dominating level of support is coming from those who aren’t “true” conservatives, but the next question I would have involves Scotsmen. So, what are you saying? That the 36% of GOP who are Trump supporters represents the true conservatives? Wouldn’t that mean that the majority of Republicans (who, presumably you think are ALL conservatives) don’t ago along with his nutty horseshit? Also, do you actually think Trump will end up with the nomination in the end?? :dubious: I would say that the ‘dominating level of support’ for Trump comes from the loonier, less sane and more frustrated part of the GOP (and that is REALLY saying something, since I think the party is generally off the rails), and that you’d be the first one to claim that most if not all Republicans=‘conservatives’, so you can build whatever NTS out of that you like. Doesn’t contradict the point I was making there though unless you’d like to explain further. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/216 "2015-12-08T19:54:49Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > And yet the number of guns in the US has risen by a [hundred million](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/Self-Reported-Gun-Ownership-Highest-1993.aspx) since 1995 (and the number of [households with guns](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/05/guns-in-the-united-states-one-for-every-man-woman-and-child-and-then-some/) is the highest its been since 1993), and gun violence has [halved](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/) over that time frame. Crime has gone down in other western countries too. When comparing different advanced countries, this correlation holds well. It doesn’t mean that it’s causative, though that seems like it might be plausible (zero guns would obviously mean zero gun violence, and loaded guns literally raining from the sky and piling up on sidewalks might just lead to a slight uptick in gun violence). I don’t know what the definite shape of the curve would be, but it would start at “zero” and, at non-zero rates of gun ownership, presumably be at some positive number. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/217 "2015-12-08T20:40:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > OK, I imagined it. But I’m having a hard time imagining how a newspaper column poses a direct and lethal threat to public safety in direct proportion to its word count. The US doesn’t have an epidemic of deaths by column inches, but it does have an epidemic of gun deaths far beyond anything experienced in any other first-world country on the planet. Which makes your analogy a worthless exercise in preposterous absurdity. > > And since the 2nd Amendment was written without reference to rate or capacity and at a time when the capacity of a musket was 1 lead ball rammed down through the muzzle, it’s hard to see how a limitation on high-capacity magazines “infringes” anything it says. How many homicides in America do you think are the results of mass shootings where more than 10 rounds are fired? The number is a little too small to call an epidemic (at least compared to the number of people who are killed in shootings where only a couple of shots are fired). Magazine capacity limits might mitigate mass shooting which account for a tiny fraction of gun murders but then all you are really saying is that you aren’t really bothered by the gun murders, you are bothered by seeing it on TV. With that said, at least magazine caps are not totally retarded like assault weapons bans. And frankly there was a chance for a magazine cap after sandy hook but the gun control lobby blew its political capital and credibility on an assault weapons ban. Frankly, the best thing the NRA can do is just STFU in public (while talking to its allies in congress) and just let the gun control folks fuck things up again. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/218 "2015-12-08T20:50:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > In their mind a well armed population leads to stability and a decrease in crime _when the actual numbers say the exact opposite_. cite for italicized portion (italicization mine) because I think you are just making it up based on some vague stuff you have heard in the past ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/219 "2015-12-08T20:53:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Actually I think we can go one step further and say that the discerning “regular person” would actually want something at least a bit _ **better** _ than what the police have, especially if it helped him in his job as, say, a professional bank robber or a freelance hit man, or even if he was just an amateur murderer or an aspiring young mass shooter. Or even if he was just a regular homeowner with Rambo delusions who wanted a gun for “protection”, which gun with all those nifty super-lethal features would – _**according to well-established statistics – be far more likely to be used in a domestic murder than for any legitimate purpose[u/]**_. > > The question, however, is not what he wants but whether he should be able to get it. In most cases the US is the only country in the developed world where the answer is “sure, why not?”. And it is this sort of conflation between gun owners and criminals that endears gun control folks to the hearts of gun owners across the country. Can you give me a cite for the highlighted portion? (Highlighting mine) Because I think you’re just making it up based on some vague stuff you have heard in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/220 "2015-12-08T20:58:26Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I never said magazine limits would prevent suicides so why are you creating another bizarre straw man? Magazine limits are obviously intended to address the criminals and unhinged nutcases who use guns to commit crimes, particularly the cases of multiple killings. > > I think a little over half (not “most”) of gun deaths are suicides, the rest are mostly homicides, plus accidents. Counting suicides in the gun death numbers, BTW, is valid for the same reason as counting them in the homicide numbers: because in both cases, the use of a gun creates a much higher percentage of lethal outcomes than other means. You can’t argue with numbers that are so hugely out of line with any other developed country. So you think our suicide numbers are hugely out of line with any other developed country? You’re wrong. Our suicide rate is pretty fucking average for wealthy industrialized nations. Does that change how you feel about including suicides in the gun death number? And a little over half is “most” And in this case “most” means ~2/3rds. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/221 "2015-12-08T21:03:05Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > To my mind, this perfectly sums up the US gun situation: > [Rare New York Times front-page editorial urging gun control draws praise, ire | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/new-york-times-gun-control-1.3352528) > > The New York Times printed a rare front-page editorial, the first time they’ve done this in 95 years, calling for action on the epidemic of gun violence in the US. > > Some gun nut took out his gun and shot holes in it. > > I can’t imagine more fitting symbolism, on so many levels, of the futility of trying to address this problem and the abject stupidity that pervades every aspect of it. Yes, every aspect. Especially the gun control side.😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=12)