# Can/should anything be done about US shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263 "2015-12-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/342 "2015-12-11T02:01:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you’re saying Toyota is protected by law against that kind of lawsuit? Please cite. I think you’re confused if that’s how you interpret my post. There was an effort to sue gun makers analogous to the hypothetical I posed with Toyota. Do you think that is a desirable thing? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/343 "2015-12-11T02:05:21Z")
Just to add, many folks don’t have an accurate understanding of the PLCAA . In the linked article just above Slate mistakenly implies that lawsuits stemming from negligent entrustment are prohibited where in fact they are allowed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/344 "2015-12-11T02:08:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think you’re confused if that’s how you interpret my post. > > There was an effort to sue gun makers analogous to the hypothetical I posed with Toyota. Do you think that is a desirable thing? I think no special protection for one industry is a good thing, and I think the courts are capable of dealing with that hypothetical like they do other potentially frivolous lawsuits. Other industries that are targeted by activists survive and thrive without special carve outs; the gun industry should too. Your argument just happens to not be falsifiable without allowing the lawsuits, and it just so happens to benefit gun manufacturers financially. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/345 "2015-12-11T02:12:07Z")
What part of the argument isn’t falsifiable? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/346 "2015-12-11T02:17:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > What part of the argument isn’t falsifiable? That gun manufacturers could not survive without this protection. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/347 "2015-12-11T03:15:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That gun manufacturers could not survive without this protection. I’m not sure I made that argument but I could have said something to that effect. In any case, that’s not a necessary premise. Curtailing stupid lawsuits is reason enough. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/348 "2015-12-11T08:26:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In other countries what you call gun control is actually simply a virtual ban on guns. Hang on, in the UK if I want a firearm I can get one. I know people in my family who own and use one regularly. It isn’t easy or cheap and there are firm restrictions on purchase, storage, transport and type but they are certainly not “banned”. What is more. If I legally owned a firearm and used it kill an intruder who threatened my or my family’s life, I would not be convicted for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/349 "2015-12-11T12:35:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In other countries what you call gun control is actually simply a virtual ban on guns. You keep repeating this, and it keeps being absolute nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/350 "2015-12-11T12:36:51Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not sure I made that argument but I could have said something to that effect. In any case, that’s not a necessary premise. Curtailing stupid lawsuits is reason enough. The court system does that just fine for every other industry without special carveouts. Congress did this because it benefits the gun industry financially – they might as well just have written this special snowflake industry a big government check… it would have been more honest. This was done to give special benefits and help the bottom line of gun companies. If it was truly necessary, then it would be necessary for all industries. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/351 "2015-12-11T16:29:12Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > When criminals and the mentally unstable have been documented as having had legal possession of multiple weapons of immense power in innumerable tragic shootings, when almost anyone can buy virtually any weapons just because he wants them, with minimal screening, to an extent unheard of in any other advanced nation on earth, when the gun death numbers are at the huge levels that they are, then it goes without saying that there is no effective or meaningful gun control. Criminals and the adjudicated mentally ill cannot purchase guns. > **[National Instant Criminal Background Check System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System#Prohibited_persons)** > > The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is a background check system in the United States created by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 to prevent firearm sales to people prohibited under the Act. The system was launched by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in 1998. Under the system, firearm dealers, manufacturers or importers who hold a Federal Firearms License (FFL) are required to undertake a NICS background check on prospective buyers before tran... > [@](#): > > That’s interesting because you or someone else was going on and on upthread about how many guns Canada allegedly has and yet gun violence is relatively low. I’ve described it an an example of effective gun control, but there’s an average of about 31 guns for every 100 residents, or over 11 million guns in the country. Please tell us how 11 million guns is “a virtual ban” or admit _ **YOU** _ were wrong, because that sort of contradiction undermines your credibility. What Canada has is a different society and culture than America. Their gun laws are not particularly strict (personally I would be OK with going quite a few steps in the direction of Canada’s system of licensing and registration as long as there were no state and local laws). > [@](#): > > Banning high-capacity semi-automatic weapons isn’t “the least effective method” just because you say so, just like it wasn’t the main or only push in Congress just because you say so. Of course it was the main push. If you don’t agree with that then you were obviously in a coma or out of the country during the months following Sandy hook. Of course it wasn’t the only push but the gun control lobby was really focused on the AWB. And the reason the AWB failed is largely because it was shown to be so ineffective that it made clear to everyone how retarded the gun control lobby in this country is. How many people do you think are killed every year by assault weapons? Only 3% of all murders are committed with rifles, of which assault weapons are a small subset. BTW do you know what makes an assault weapon an assault weapon? Things like adjustable stocks, pistol grips (both ergonomic accessories) a bayonet lug or (for pistols) looking like an automatic firearm (both purely cosmetic). > [@](#): > > The White House proposed [at least a dozen significant reforms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control_after_the_Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting). AFAIK, Congress passed not a single one. The white house also proposes a budget every year too. And unless we have a one party government, everyone just ignores it. Obama was not the point man on gun control after Sandy hook. It was Dianne Feinstein and her main policy objective was the AWB. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gun-control-lessons-from-lyndon-johnson/2012/12/16/38f3941e-47b4-11e2-ad54-580638ede391\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gun-control-lessons-from-lyndon-johnson/2012/12/16/38f3941e-47b4-11e2-ad54-580638ede391_story.html) History repeated itself after Sandy Hook. There was an opportunity for real and meaningful gun control but the gun control folks fucked it up and ended up looking so retarded that noone wanted anything to do with them. Why do you think Dianne Feinstein keeps her trap shut these days? > [@](#): > > Well, it’s a bit OT, but since you ask, the way it works where I live is much the way it works in most functional democracies: a reasonably informed populace (informed in part by a trusted and objective public broadcasting system) elects representatives who more or less enact their stated policies, usually in the public interest. In this way most such nations have advanced the public interest in such areas as effective gun control, universal health care, and a progressive system of taxation. That’s pretty much what we have here but with different results. You sound like one of those folks who want democracy in the middle east but object to the results of the democratic expression of the will of the people in those countries. “Yes have democracy and create a society exactly like what I would have created if I were king, otherwise your democracy is broken” > [@](#): > > In contrast to having special interests like the NRA and the Koch brothers spending lavishly to tell voters what to think, So there no one where you are from is allowed to spend money on campaigns? The NRA doesn’t really spend a lot of money by DC standards. Their power doesn’t come from money. Their power is largely Democratic. There is a reasonably large group of otherwise apathetic single issue voters who will come out to the polls if someone tries to fuck with their second amendment rights. > [@](#): > > and buying politicians that they can control like puppets on a string as to what bills they need passed or repealed. How much do you think the NRa spends on political contributions? How much do you think Michael Bloomberg (one person) has made in political contributions on the issue? > [@](#): > > Which is why you have NO effective gun control, The gun rights folks have been around for decades, protecting a constitutional right that we have had for centuries. > [@](#): > > NO universal health care, and a tax system that overwhelmingly favors those who can afford to buy and control politicians. We don’t have universal health care because we have a two party system, one of which is dedicated to small government in all things other than military spending. That party represents the will of about half the people in this country. You are probably right about taxes but frankly America is not the only country with this problem. > [@](#): > > Some years ago Fortune magazine ranked the NRA as the #1 most powerful and influential lobby organization in Washington. To say that basically no significant gun law can get passed without their approval is an understatement; ever since they formed their Legislative Affairs Division in 1934 (now ILA) they’ve basically been writing the gun laws, and its PAC is among the biggest of all spenders in Congressional elections. The NRA is undoubtedly one of the most insidious, powerful, and corrupt forces to have ever usurped the public interest in a modern democracy. And they do it by exerting ironclad control over politicians, information, and public perception. They do exercise that ironclad influence with a large army of voters. I’m sorry that you disagree with a large portion of the American voting population but there it is. BTW you do realize that conggress passed an assault weapons ban before, right? it where the term assault weapons comes from. The term did not exist before they passed that law. A law that the NRA really really didn’t like. and yet it still got passed. How did they manage to defeat the invincible NRA back then? > [@](#): > > Right on – thanks for perfectly proving my above point! > > According to you, anyone who supports gun control, or provides data that supports gun control (including government agencies) is either retarded, incredibly biased, or ignorant. 😃 No, according to me David Hemenway is biased and while the data he collects is probably not too corrupt (although data collection can also be contaminated by bias) the way he interprets the data is biased. What government agency DATA have I criticized? I don’t think you know what you are talking about but you are obviously very emotional about it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/352 "2015-12-11T16:39:37Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It was necessary. The lawsuits were civil and we’re they to go through enough trials eventually there would be a sympathetic jury and the gun industry would be damaged based on frivalousness. Sharia law in Texas has about zero chance of coming to pass. A succesful lawsuit against gun manufacturers was a matter of time since gun control advocates could forum shop. There is an appeal process and I think that as a matter of law, you cannot hold a manufacturer liable for the criminal acts of another. At least the cases i am aware of would have been. The cases I knew about ranged from a case where the lawsuit was based on the fact that the manufacturer was selling to a gun store where some disproportionately large percentage of guns used in crime were sold to a case where the plaintiff was relying on the novel and previously rejected principle that someone might be liable for the criminal acts of others. They are nuisance suits and while there was no attempt to enact sharia law in Texas the nuisance suits had little chance of winning and no chance of surviving appeal. Its just harrassment by people who think they are on the side of the angels (and that justifies pretty much anything doesn’t it?) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/353 "2015-12-11T16:41:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Auto manufacturers and other industries survive many successful lawsuits over the years. Gun manufacturers shouldn’t be treated as some special snowflake… They can raise prices or lower expenses if they need more to cover lawsuits, just like other industries, many of whom are targeted by activists as much as they are. The alcohol industry went through something like this and they did’t need special protections. The fact of the matter is that this probably saves the firearms industry a few million dollars in legal fees so I suppose there is that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/354 "2015-12-11T16:46:55Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Toyota paid out lots of money for “defects” in their vehicle, which after investigation appeared to be just major faults like “driver confused gas pedal and brake” or “driver haphazardly threw floor mat in car and it bunched up under the pedal.” But as far as I know there is no major effort to sue car manufacturers for punitive measures, except maybe patent trolls. But damn if the people against PLCAA don’t come across as [disingenuous and shrill](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/10/13/bernie_sanders_on_guns_at_the_debate.html). The problem with the way they portray the law is that they are misleading about what the law does. Even the article describes the law as “a terrible law that shields gun sellers and manufacturers from legal liability in most lawsuits.”. What it does it shield gun manufacturers from liability for the criminal acts of others. Yes it is a special protection that no other industry gets but frankly it is a special protection that they don’t need unless you consider it appropriate to pass laws to stop a particular flavor of frivolous lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/355 "2015-12-11T16:49:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Hang on, in the UK if I want a firearm I can get one. I know people in my family who own and use one regularly. > It isn’t easy or cheap and there are firm restrictions on purchase, storage, transport and type but they are certainly not “banned”. Thats why I said virtual ban. You can buy a gun in NYC too but its such a pain in the ass that it is a virtual ban. > [@](#): > > What is more. If I legally owned a firearm and used it kill an intruder who threatened my or my family’s life, I would not be convicted for it. Why the fuck would you? We inherited our jurisprudence on self defense from England, so we have much the same law (or at least we used to before all these stand your ground laws) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/356 "2015-12-11T16:52:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You keep repeating this, and it keeps being absolute nonsense. I didn’t say it was a ban I said it was a virtual ban. Perhaps I am not as sanguine about the restrictions as you are. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/357 "2015-12-11T17:14:06Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Hang on, in the UK if I want a firearm I can get one. I know people in my family who own and use one regularly. > It isn’t easy or cheap and there are firm restrictions on purchase, storage, transport and type but they are certainly not “banned”. > What is more. If I legally owned a firearm and used it kill an intruder who threatened my or my family’s life, I would not be convicted for it. What can you actually buy? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/358 "2015-12-11T17:31:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The alcohol industry went through something like this and they did’t need special protections. The fact of the matter is that this probably saves the firearms industry a few million dollars in legal fees so I suppose there is that. Do you agree that the PLCAA should be repealed? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/359 "2015-12-11T18:08:09Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > What can you actually buy? Basically it amounts to air weapons, shotguns and smaller bore rifles. I believe some larger bore hunting rifles are permitted as well. [Here is a pdf](https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479794/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_Nov_2015_v16.pdf)that has all you might need to know. No handguns though. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/360 "2015-12-11T18:09:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I didn’t say it was a ban I said it was a virtual ban. Perhaps I am not as sanguine about the restrictions as you are. The word “ban” has a very specific meaning, you’d be wiser to use it in the correct manner. Saves confusion for us and backtracking for you. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/361 "2015-12-11T18:19:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Thats why I said virtual ban. You can buy a gun in NYC too but its such a pain in the ass that it is a virtual ban. I’ve just read through the NYC restrictions on buying and owning a gun. That you would consider them in any way onerous or represent even a “virtual ban” is utterly laughable. At best they are a minor, temporary inconvenience (only one purchase per 90 day period?..boo-hoo, proper storage required only after purchasing 5 weapons…what an outrage!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=19)