# Can/should anything be done about US shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263 "2015-12-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/422 "2015-12-15T16:42:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Because they supply weaponry for our police and military, among other reasons. Plenty of companies supply weaponry and equipment to police and military without selling much (if anything) to the general public. Bans on private nuclear-submarine ownership (if such a ban existed), or the lack of a ban on suing nuclear-submarine companies, wouldn’t affect the nation’s ability to acquire nuclear submarines. Nations without a 2nd amendment or gun rights still, somehow, manage to arm their militaries (and police when applicable) with effective modern firearms. So I don’t accept that this has anything to do with our police and military’s ability to get firearms, even if I accepted that the gun industry would be significantly hurt by the repeal of the PLCAA. > [@](#): > > Did you happen to read the NEJM article: > That means without the vaccine protection, there would have been no manufacturer of the DPT vaccine (diphtheria, pertussis (whooping cough), and tetanus. Sounds like it might be a reasonable argument. > [@](#): > > Equivocation, nice. Rather than the tautology that you rely on, I was referring to what you considered a compelling public interest. > > * * * Well, fribble my grits. > [@](#): > > I’m sure I’m not going to convince you, but I find it amusing that the PLCAA a result of another instance of the gun control lobby overreaching. The failed litigation efforts led congress to pass it. Just like the AWB push contributed to UBC failing after Sandy Hook, and the original AWB contributed to other congressional losses. Gun control tried to sue gun makers out of business and in return Congress told them to GTFO. Good luck trying to get it repealed. This is indeed pretty amusing – the gun control lobby (and the movement in general) has been an enormous failure. I’m in favor of a few minor measures for gun control – universal background checks and better coordination between intelligence agencies and these background checks – but I don’t think these would have significant effects, nor do I think even the strongest anti-gun regulation efforts would have much of an effect on gun crime, any more than drug regulations have an effect on drug use. There are tons of guns and they aren’t going away in the short or medium term no matter what – this is just part of American culture and society, and some measure of violence will accompany it as long as there are lots of easy-to-get guns. I don’t think ending the PLCAA would have an effect either – I don’t accept your doom-and-gloom predictions that it would do more than possibly minorly affecting gun prices, and I don’t accept the lawsuit-advocates argument that it would significantly hurt the gun industry. I’m not much of a gun control guy. I own a gun, and I like shooting. I think the NRA exists almost entirely to enrich Wayne LaPierre and his cronies by spreading fear of mostly nonexistent things – it’s long past the “devolves into a racket” phase of political causes, and I think they’re very good at it. Gun companies are solid investments, and will be as long as they have a majority of Congress in their back pockets. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/423 "2015-12-15T18:40:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m willing to consider exceptions to my “courts should decide whether lawsuits are frivolous or not” philosophy. The reasons you’ve presented for why an exception should exist for the firearm industry don’t cut it for me. No one has made a detailed argument in favor of the exceptions for vaccines and EMS personnel, but I’m certainly willing to entertain one. Based on your arguments, I see no need (or benefit) for an exception for the gun industry. Based on the cursory arguments presented for vaccines and EMS, I might be okay with it, but I have no final opinion on the issue. First the Court system is already backed up with better suits, so it’s a bad idea to add thousands of frivolous ones. Next- even if a Court decides that a case is frivolous, that doesnt stop the Gun Grabbers from spending more tax payer money to try again, thus forcing gun companies to spend more legal fees. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/424 "2015-12-15T18:47:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Plenty of companies supply weaponry and equipment to police and military without selling much (if anything) to the general public. > So I don’t accept that this has anything to do with our police and military’s ability to get firearms, even if I accepted that the gun industry would be significantly hurt by the repeal of the PLCAA… In America, no company makes _just_ guns for the Military. The factories would have to say idle too long and contracts come and go. Colt makes most of them, currently. And even more so with police weapons. Nuke subs, etc are different, so the project/contract for that is enough to start from more or less scratch to full prod to shut down. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/425 "2015-12-15T19:11:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > First the Court system is already backed up with better suits, so it’s a bad idea to add thousands of frivolous ones. > > Next- even if a Court decides that a case is frivolous, that doesnt stop the Gun Grabbers from spending more tax payer money to try again, thus forcing gun companies to spend more legal fees. I don’t accept that this potentially negative thing (if true, even) is worth giving special treatment that financially benefits the gun industry. > [@](#): > > In America, no company makes just guns for the Military. The factories would have to say idle too long and contracts come and go. Colt makes most of them, currently. And even more so with police weapons. > > Nuke subs, etc are different, so the project/contract for that is enough to start from more or less scratch to full prod to shut down. This doesn’t change my argument at all – I don’t think lawsuits would significantly harm gun companies, and even if they did, then other companies would step in, plus foreign companies (from which our military and police already purchase weapons and equipment), plus new companies, just like the many, many other countries with no gun rights for citizens which still successfully supply their militaries and police with guns. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/426 "2015-12-15T19:24:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This doesn’t change my argument at all – I don’t think lawsuits would significantly harm gun companies, and even if they did, then other companies would step in, plus foreign companies (from which our military and police already purchase weapons and equipment), plus new companies, just like the many, many other countries with no gun rights for citizens which still successfully supply their militaries and police with guns. What a great idea- put Americans military at the total mercy of foreign politics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/427 "2015-12-15T20:49:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What a great idea- put Americans military at the total mercy of foreign politics. I’ll pass this along to anyone who advocates for this. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/428 "2015-12-15T21:05:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Absolutely. Do you have a cite that such lawsuits are banned? No, but they are not being sued like that either. If states and cities start passing laws that allowed you to sue on behalf of the dead fetuses, then they would need this sort of protection. If they started passing laws that allowed women to sue for “buyer’s remorse” at any time after they had the abortion, then they would need that sort of protection. But no one is doing that “yet” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/429 "2015-12-15T21:08:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why not? Such lawsuits might put the gun industry out of business! Because legal principles have worked that way since we’ve had laws in this country. They are not breaking new ground by allowing those sort of lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/430 "2015-12-15T21:10:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, but they are not being sued like that either. > > If states and cities start passing laws that allowed you to sue on behalf of the dead fetuses, then they would need this sort of protection. If they started passing laws that allowed women to sue for “buyer’s remorse” at any time after they had the abortion, then they would need that sort of protection. But no one is doing that “yet” Says you. I don’t believe anti abortion groups wouldn’t have already tried this if it could have such an effect. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/431 "2015-12-15T21:14:50Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I do. [More than half of the firearms traced in crimes come from just 1 percent of the nation’s licensed gun stores, but federal agents rarely check to make sure these stores are complying with gun laws, a new study finds.](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129253&nfo=/desktop_newsfeed_ab_refer_homepage) > > Cutting their legal risk by almost half, while reducing sales by perhaps 1 percent, would seem to be a no-brainer, if there was liability. > > I’m not crazy about changing public policy by lawsuit. I favor making the losing party pay the legal costs of the winners. But, much as I dislike lawsuits, I’m even more against giving an exemption to merchants of the tools of death. So why isn’t anyone cracking down on these stores? And how would a civil lawsuit expose wrongdoing where out law enforcement cannot? Or are you relying on the different standards of proof? I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/432 "2015-12-15T21:18:43Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > FFL dealers are not protected, snowflakes though they may be: > > [Wisconsin FFL hit with civil judgement](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/us/milwaukee-gun-store-trial.html?_r=0). As they should have been. The law protects FFLs but the law does not protect them from everything. It only protects them from frivolous lawsuits… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/433 "2015-12-15T21:24:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t accept this was the motivation of Congress (rather, I believe that Congress was motivated to financially help the firearm industry by reducing their legal expenses). Who gives a shit? The point is that this law is not the sort of legal immunity that you thought it was and now you still oppose it for new reasons. The law was in response to abuse of the legal system by civilians as well as states and municipalities. When the states and municipalities start to abuse the legal system this way in other industries, I will support them getting the same sort of protection. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/434 "2015-12-15T21:25:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Who gives a shit? The point is that this law is not the sort of legal immunity that you thought it was and now you still oppose it for new reasons. > > The law was in response to abuse of the legal system by civilians as well as states and municipalities. When the states and municipalities start to abuse the legal system this way in other industries, I will support them getting the same sort of protection. None of this was new to me at all - I knew that advocates of the law said it was to protect from abuse and frivolous lawsuits, I just don’t believe them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/435 "2015-12-15T21:32:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Says you. I don’t believe anti abortion groups wouldn’t have already tried this if it could have such an effect. They haven’t tried it because it nucking futz. That’s right, the anti-gun folks are even crazier than the anti-abortion folks. Show me one state where they have a special law that gives you the right to sue abortion clinics in a way that you would not be able to sue anyone else? Before this law was passed, states were passing laws that would allow you to sue gun manufacturers and sellers in a way that you would not be able to sue anyone else. When the legislatures of various states choose to treat the gun industry like a snowflake then congress can respond by treating the gun industry like a snowflake. If it was just private lawsuits I doubt this law would have been passed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/436 "2015-12-15T21:36:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > None of this was new to me at all - I knew that advocates of the law said it was to protect from abuse and frivolous lawsuits, I just don’t believe them. So do you think this protects them from anything more than abuse and frivolous lawsuits? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/437 "2015-12-15T21:50:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They haven’t tried it because it nucking futz. That’s right, the anti-gun folks are even crazier than the anti-abortion folks. LOL. I don’t believe you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/438 "2015-12-15T21:51:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So do you think this protects them from anything more than abuse and frivolous lawsuits? Possibly - perhaps an individual lawsuit might have merit. I trust the courts to decide that, not Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/439 "2015-12-16T00:46:41Z")
Perhaps this, possibly that, I don’t believe that … how bold a position to take. Your convictions know no bounds. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/440 "2015-12-16T00:57:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So why isn’t anyone cracking down on these stores? What do you think? I think one answer is that statistical evidence, while it can be convincing to me, isn’t legal proof. Another is that these are the same sorts of stores that ([unlike Wal-Mart](https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/walmarts-background-check-policy-stricter-than-federal/)) sell guns without waiting for background checks when government computers are down, and that, partly because of the ease of buying guns there, they have loyal non-criminal customers who would be outraged by the crack-down. The gun lobby would take their side rather than, as I would prefer, organize a boycott against them. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/441 "2015-12-16T00:59:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or are you relying on the different standards of proof? I’m not relying on anything. I just don’t think it is fair for people who are selling tools for killing to be exempt. The phrase “special snowflakes” is totally relevant here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=23)