# Can/should anything be done about US shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263 "2015-12-02T23:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/101 "2015-12-03T20:24:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You have people who, for whatever reason, have decided to murder people. > > These psychopathic monsters should not have access to bomb making materials, or firearms, or knives, or axes, or poisons, or rope. Yes, a high-capacity large-caliber semi-automatic weapon capable of killing dozens of people in seconds from a distance is _ **exactly** _ the same as a kitchen knife or a piece of string. :rolleyes: > [@doorhinge](#): > > Inanimate objects do not kill people, psychopathic monsters kill people. You need to identify and control these psychopathic monsters. Save the bumper-sticker slogans for your bumper stickers. Civilized societies in the real world recognize that (a) this isn’t possible with any kind of effectiveness, and, more importantly, that (b) anyone is capable of acting like a psychopath under suitable debilitating circumstances, emotions and stresses. Therefore you can’t buy dynamite or nuclear weapons down at the corner store, and in civilized societies you can’t buy guns there, either – at least, not easily and not without extensive screening. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/102 "2015-12-03T20:39:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the last few decades there has been a trend (from what I can tell) for more guns into the hands of anyone and everyone in the US. In my view, the “right hands” people (i.e. those who have taken the time and effort to practice and train themselves and don’t wish any group harm) probably already have guns and have for decades… but the “wrong hands” people is a much, much larger group. > > I don’t see how it’s possible to only get guns into the right hands, and take them away from the wrong hands, without significant changes in gun laws. As an overall trend, yes. But not in CA, not in NY, not in Maryland, not in Hawaii, not in Illinois (until recently). In those places, the vast majority of people are still prevented from carrying firearms even if they want to, and are the people that have taken the time and effort to practice and train themselves and wish no one harm. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/103 "2015-12-03T20:58:12Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > More guns in the hands of the right people will = either less killings or the same level. That’s an interesting assertion. I see two primary affects from having more guns in the hands of “the right people”: (1) “Good guys with guns” will be able to prevent some number of deaths (or at least change them from deaths of innocent victims to deaths of bad guys) (2) Guns owned by “the right people” will be used to kill someone, either because they were stolen, or because of human error. People who are generally stable fly into an unusual rage, or get 20 years older and become different people, or get drunk and leave the gun cabinet unlocked, or what have you. I’m willing to believe that that’s a very small number, but there’s no way it’s zero. So is (1) \> (2)? Beats me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/104 "2015-12-03T21:01:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > More guns in the hands of the wrong people will = more killings. More guns in the hands of the right people will = either less killings or the same level. And your plan to get more guns in the hands of the right people, without the wrong people also getting more guns is…? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/105 "2015-12-03T21:26:33Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > …Save the bumper-sticker slogans for your bumper stickers. You’re right, psychopaths can drive their vehicles into a crowd of innocent people. Whatever it takes to get the job done. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/106 "2015-12-03T21:30:10Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Most of these shooters did not have shitty lives. Columbine? Sandy Hook? Virginia Tech guy? James Holmes? > > These guys had it pretty good. I don’t think you can necessarily say that. They obviously had grievances with someone, and were dissatisfied with something. Nobody murders people for fun, except serial killers, and they’re exceedingly rare. For example, the Planned Parenthood shooter had political grievances, and I’d be willing to bet he didn’t feel he had the voice or power to change anything about that situation without resorting to violence. Kind of like Ed Snowden didn’t feel he had the power or voice to change the American self-espionage situation without resorting to illegally leaking classified information. The Black Lives Matter movement doesn’t feel that sitting around and waiting until election time to make their voices heard will result in any changes to the law enforcement status quo. I’m not saying these people are all destitute. The very poor usually don’t have the time or energy for political activism or organizing a mass shooting. They’re too busy trying not to starve or freeze to death. It’s the young, middle class, educated folks who have always been revolutionaries. Some of them take the MLK/Gandhi route, some take the Boston Tea Party route, some take the John Brown/Black Panther route, and some take the suicide by cop route out of the situation. I’m not comparing Robert Dear to John Brown, just saying that violence has always been seen as a legitimate tactic for social change, especially among the voiceless and marginalized. So, just maybe, we ought to give people a say in how their society and government treats them beyond a token vote for a professional liar a few times a decade. I’m not saying it’s a silver bullet, but California has the strictest gun control in the country, and they’re basically completely banned in France. So gun control isn’t a golden ticket either. It’s a complicated problem that slogans and bumper stickers just can’t answer. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/107 "2015-12-03T21:36:21Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Plus if I’m not mistaken Paris and California have gun control. We do. Which is why when there’s a mass murder (which, by and large, there really isn’t), it is typically the act of terrorists enmeshed within networks and logistics. Not Joe Six Pack going on a murderous lark with his store-bought 20mm Bushmaster autocannon. And we’ve had a grand total of three over the past 15 years (I’m counting 1996 as one, even though it was a bombing campaign). Our last _bona fide_ shooting spree (i.e. unhinged guy with a gun opening up on a random crowd) was in 2012. The one before that was in 2002, then 1995. That’s over all of France btw, not just Paris. We’ve had zero (0) school massacres and one (1) guy going postal at work back in 1992. That’s it. Gun control : much like Science!, it works, bitches. Oh, and in case **doorhinge** is wondering, we do not experience a particularly large number of drive-by knifings or spree ropings instead. Or any at all, really. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/108 "2015-12-03T21:37:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > A ban on weapons based on cosmetic and ergonomic features that account for a ridiculously slim minority of gun deaths? No frakking way. > > The gun rights side didn’t win that fight, the gun control side lost it. While you’re right on the first count, I don’t think the public perception is that it was a lost cause. Most people are unaware that the definition of “assault weapon” is a self-referential one. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Yes, a high-capacity large-caliber semi-automatic weapon capable of killing dozens of people in seconds from a distance is _ **exactly** _ the same as a kitchen knife or a piece of string. :rolleyes: Nitpick: an “assault rifle,” which I assume you are referring to, is by definition not large-caliber. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/109 "2015-12-03T22:12:59Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > Did it matter to you for the Paris attacks? > > The only brown shooter recently was in New Orleans, and [he shot 17 people](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/11/29/new-orleans-park-shooting-suspect-held/76547580/), and wasn’t called a terrorist, although I’m sure you missed that since the president didn’t make a tweet about it. Yeah but he shot other brown people. If the news blew up every time that happened we’d never get to sports and weather. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/110 "2015-12-03T23:27:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > We do. Which is why when there’s a mass murder (which, by and large, there really isn’t), it is typically the act of terrorists enmeshed within networks and logistics. Not Joe Six Pack going on a murderous lark with his store-bought 20mm Bushmaster autocannon. \*\*And we’ve had a grand total of three over the past 15 years (I’m counting 1996 as one, even though it was a bombing campaign). Our last _bona fide_ shooting spree (i.e. unhinged guy with a gun opening up on a random crowd) was in 2012. The one before that was in 2002, then 1995. > That’s over all of France btw, not just Paris. We’ve had zero (0) school massacres and one (1) guy going postal at work back in 1992. \*\* > > That’s it. Gun control : much like Science!, it works, bitches. > > Oh, and in case **doorhinge** is wondering, we do not experience a particularly large number of drive-by knifings or spree ropings instead. Or any at all, really. Perhaps France’s gun control scheme works in a desirable way, but CA’s does not. In CA over recent history there was: [ul] [li][2014 Isla Vista killings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings)[/li][li][2013 Santa Monica shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Santa_Monica_shooting)[/li][li][2012 Oikos University shooting (school shooting, though not K-12)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oikos_University_shooting)[/li][li][2011 Seal Beach shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Seal_Beach_shooting)[/li][li][2006 Goleta postal facility shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goleta_postal_facility_shootings)[/li][li][2001 Santana High School (school shooting)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Andrew_Williams)[/li][/ul] CA has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/111 "2015-12-03T23:39:26Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s an interesting assertion. > > I see two primary affects from having more guns in the hands of “the right people”: > (1) “Good guys with guns” will be able to prevent some number of deaths (or at least change them from deaths of innocent victims to deaths of bad guys) > (2) Guns owned by “the right people” will be used to kill someone, either because they were stolen, or because of human error. People who are generally stable fly into an unusual rage, or get 20 years older and become different people, or get drunk and leave the gun cabinet unlocked, or what have you. I’m willing to believe that that’s a very small number, but there’s no way it’s zero. > > So is (1) \> (2)? > > Beats me. There’s also another effect - good guys with guns do nothing yielding no increase or decrease. Here’s how I think of it - despite much of the recent light shown on negative police behavior, the majority of the population would not object to more uniformed police properly trained on regular patrols. The police presence among many other things, serves as a deterrent of sorts. The lack of objection is due to the characteristics of the police themselves. They are trained, etc. A large contingent of armed guards would be similar, but I think armed guards are less prevalent than police. A large population of armed civilians properly trained would serve a similar purpose. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > And your plan to get more guns in the hands of the right people, without the wrong people also getting more guns is…? Who knows - I’m pointing out the nuance you left out, though I admit it’s somewhat tautological. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/112 "2015-12-04T01:44:24Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Perhaps France’s gun control scheme works in a desirable way, but CA’s does not … > > … CA has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. No doubt you know that France is a country, but California is just a state. Here’s an illustration of the difference: Canada is a country, and one of the most demanding and important jobs of Canadian border agents is keeping American guns and gun nuts out of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/113 "2015-12-04T02:03:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > No doubt you know that France is a country, but California is just a state. > > Here’s an illustration of the difference: Canada is a country, and one of the most demanding and important jobs of Canadian border agents is keeping American guns and gun nuts out of the country. That is completely new information! The US can’t keep out shit. We can’t even keep in our guns. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/114 "2015-12-04T02:13:10Z")
Or our crazy people yearning to breath the free air in Canada, I guess. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/115 "2015-12-04T02:14:23Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Your argument that more more guns = more killing. While the US is by far and away the most gun happy country in the world with 90 guns per 100 people, our murder rate per 100,000 population is not even in the top half of all countries. We are according to the video 111 out of 218. > Another interesting note is Detroit which has very strict gun control has a murder rate that if it were a separate country make it #2 on the list of most murders with a gun per 100,000 population. > Plano Texas on the other hand with very lax gun control (open carry legal as of 1/1/16) has a murder rate of .4/ 100,000 making it one of the safest places in the world. > [@wolfpup](#): > > I assume you’re just summarizing an incredibly stupid video about which a few astute comments have already been made, and you already know that each one of those points is such utterly misleading bullshit that it’s practically a parody of the most inane of the gun nut talking points. Please don’t tell me that I actually have to explain why. Well let’s go through it point by point then. I’m sure you agree that the US has the highest per capita gun ownership, so I shouldn’t have to give a cite for that one. So let move on to murder rates. According to [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country) we are not 111th like the video stated, we are 121st. Sorry for the error, but it isn’t helping your argument. 🙂 So let’s move on to city death rates According to [here](http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Detroit-Michigan.html) in 2012 Detroit had a murder rate of 54.6 per 100,000 population. Which would have put Detroit 2nd on Wiki’s list of countries. However Detroit pales against the new murder champ East St. Louis with a murder rate of [101.9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_St._Louis,_Illinois#Crime) and Camden NJ at [86.2](http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Camden-New-Jersey.html)! Excuse me, I mis-typed that, the actual number is 86.3. If East St. Louis were a country it would be the deadliest in the world. :eek: As far as Plano Texas, 0.4 is the correct number as of [2012](http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Plano-Texas.html). Just so you don’t think I’m cherry picking anything, Arizona which has more guns that people and open carry is and always has been legal has Chandler a suburb of Phoenix which has a rate of 0.4 and even Phoenix with it’s barrios and illegals and a fair amount of crime only has a murder rate of [7.9](http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Phoenix-Arizona.html) I don’t think I need to mention that purchasing a gun in New Jersey, Michigan or N.J., and California is much harder than it is in Arizona, and Texas If you doubt it, here are the [laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state), knock yourself out. Now before you trot out the countries above us on the murder list are third world hell holes, you might want to read [this](https://mises.org/blog/mistake-only-comparing-us-murder-rates-developed-countries): > [@](#): > > But these are the only countries the US shall be compared to, we are told, because the US shall only be compared to “developed” countries when analyzing its murder rate and gun ownership. > And yet, no reason for this is ever given. What is the criteria for deciding that the United States shall be compared to Luxembourg but not to Mexico, which has far more in common with the US than Luxembourg in terms of size, history, ethnic diversity, and geography? Much of this stems from outdated preconceived and evidence-free notions about the “third world.” As Hans Rosling has shown, there is this idea of “we” vs. “them.” “We” are the special “developed” countries were people are happy healthy, and live long lives. “Them” is the third world where people live in war-torn squalor and lives there are nasty, brutish, and short. In this mode of thinking there is a bright shiny line between the “developed” world and everyone else, who might as well be considered as a different species. > > In truth, there is no dividing line between the alleged “developed” world and everyone else. There is, in fact, only gradual change that takes place as one looks at Belgium, then the US, then Chile, and Turkey, and China, and Mexico. Most countries, as Rosling illustrates here, are in the middle, and this is freely exhibited by a variety of metrics including the UN’s human development index. > > Once we understand these facts, and do not cling to bizarre xenophobic views about how everyone outside the “developed” world is too dysfunctional and/or subhuman (although few gun control advocates would ever admit to the thought) to bear comparison to the US, we immediately see that the mantra “worst in the developed world” offers an immensely skewed, unrealistic, and even bigoted view of the world and how countries compare to each other. > [@XT](#): > > It’s less of a downward trend than I though it was though, and looks like it’s gone up recently, though not a lot. It’s been fairly stable and probably within whatever error bars they are using for their survey. Just a interesting point, on Black Friday this year the FBI did more background checks on that day than ever before over [185,000](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/01/black-friday-breaks-record-185k-gun-background-checks/76624604/). Like the caption under President Obama’s [picture](http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small76991291.JPG) in one gun store I visit. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/116 "2015-12-04T02:15:08Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That is completely new information! I strive to inform! 🙂 Yes, the effect of sovereign _ **national** _ policies enforced by _ **national** _ border protections is indeed a major contributor to _ **national** _ culture, safety, and well-being. It’s the kind of thing that results in the American yahoo waving a handgun and spouting about the Second Amendment either being turned around at the border and sent home or being arrested, as circumstances may warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/117 "2015-12-04T02:49:01Z")
God dammit, I voted for Obama TWICE because he was going to grab all the guns! I’m gonna vote for Hillary next year because SHE’S gonna grab all the guns! So when do we get to start grabbing the guns? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/118 "2015-12-04T02:52:27Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Just a interesting point, on Black Friday this year the FBI did more background checks on that day than ever before over [185,000](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/01/black-friday-breaks-record-185k-gun-background-checks/76624604/). Like the caption under President Obama’s [picture](http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small76991291.JPG) in one gun store I visit. I agree that the number of people who buy into the distorted and alarmist claims coming from the NRA and firearms manufacturers is depressing. Of course, those are largely the same people who already own guns (and not, generally, first-time buyers, as your “amusing” caption would have us believe), so maybe it makes sense that they are more susceptible to deceptive advertising. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/119 "2015-12-04T02:59:40Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > God dammit, I voted for Obama TWICE because he was going to grab all the guns! I’m gonna vote for Hillary next year because SHE’S gonna grab all the guns! > > So when do we get to start grabbing the guns? You should probably quit voting that way (I’m just trying to save you some disappointment). ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263/120 "2015-12-04T03:04:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You should probably quit voting that way (I’m just trying to save you some disappointment). Do you have guns? I’m coming to GRAB them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-anything-be-done-about-us-shootings/739263.md?page=7)