# Can/should the irresponsible handling of guns be specifically targeted by law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868 "2014-08-05T14:31:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/1 "2014-08-05T14:31:17Z")
Just read [this](http://inversesquare.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/how-is-this-not-manslaughter/) article (in summary – someone is showing off his gun collection, one goes off, and shoots a pregnant woman in the head). The article notes that “Police are still investigating the incident, but believe it was an accidental shooting, according to the Tampa Bay Times”. And the author asks (as I do) “how is this not manslaughter?”. Are accidental shootings typically just ignored by police, if they are determined to be genuine accidents? If so, why? And if so, should new laws be crafted that specifically target such irresponsibility? The author of the article proposes something like this: “Responsible means that whatever happens with your gun is your fault. Period. You accidentally discharge it and no-one gets hurt? How’s this: big fine, confiscate the weapon involved, lose the right to bear arms for a year for the first incident, forever if you repeat. Someone gets hurt or dies? Jail. Civil liability. Loss of gun rights for life. That’s responsibility.” On the face of it, it sounds reasonable to me. “Loss of gun rights” for serially irresponsible gun owners, while it seems reasonable, might actually be unconstitutional, though, if I understand it correctly. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/2 "2014-08-05T14:37:30Z")
Some years ago, California passes such a law. Didn’t take long for the first case to occur. (From memory) Grandfather kills grandson (toddler, young child) in accidental shooting. DA decides not to prosecute “He’s suffered enough”. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/3 "2014-08-05T14:43:37Z")
Last year, a San Diego man was charged for leaving his gun where two children could get at it and play with it, resulting in an accidental death. [Story here](http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Todd-Francis-Shooting-Gun-Garage-CHild-Killed-Eric-Klyaz-San-Diego-244753671.html) In the case of the OP’s blog link, the author does not provide any explanation of lack of legal action. The difference may lie with the District Attorny’s discretionary powers in deciding to charge or not. Get a different DA in there, and you may have had charges filed. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/4 "2014-08-05T14:57:21Z")
From the [Office of the Attorney General of California.](http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/tips) > [@](#): > > You may be guilty of a misdemeanor or a felony if you keep a loaded firearm within any premises that are under your custody or control and a child under 18 years of age obtains and uses it, resulting in injury or death, or carries it to a public place, unless you stored the firearm in a locked container or locked the firearm with a locking device to temporarily keep it from functioning. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/5 "2014-08-05T15:00:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just read [this](http://inversesquare.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/how-is-this-not-manslaughter/) article (in summary – someone is showing off his gun collection, one goes off, and shoots a pregnant woman in the head). The article notes that “Police are still investigating the incident, but believe it was an accidental shooting, according to the Tampa Bay Times”. > > And the author asks (as I do) “how is this not manslaughter?”. > > Are accidental shootings typically just ignored by police, if they are determined to be genuine accidents? If so, why? And if so, should new laws be crafted that specifically target such irresponsibility? Sounds like manslaughter. [Here’s a very similar and recent case, also in Florida](http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/crime-law/17-year-old-charged-in-accidental-palm-beach-garde/ngtYX/), in which some teens were passing around a pistol, one accidentally shot and killed another, and was charged with manslaughter. > [@](#): > > The author of the article proposes something like this: > > "Responsible means that whatever happens with your gun is your fault. Period. Some states already have laws to this effect, wherein a gun owner can be criminally liable for the misuse of his firearms by children, if they are not safely stored, even if no one was hurt. Here’s [New Hampshire’s statute](http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lxii/650-c/650-c-1.htm), as an example. > [@](#): > > You accidentally discharge it and no-one gets hurt? How’s this: big fine, confiscate the weapon involved, lose the right to bear arms for a year for the first incident, forever if you repeat. Someone gets hurt or dies? Jail. Civil liability. Loss of gun rights for life. That’s responsibility." > > On the face of it, it sounds reasonable to me. “Loss of gun rights” for serially irresponsible gun owners, while it seems reasonable, might actually be unconstitutional, though, if I understand it correctly. Thoughts? Essentially, he’s proposing that accidentally discharging a firearm be made a felony, with (as with most felonies in most states) the attendant loss of the civil right to bear arms. I can see a few issues with this: if the discharge wasn’t otherwise illegal (close to a road, for instance) and no one and no property were struck by the bullet, how would one go about proving that it was an accidental discharge? Would it be a defense to claim that one intended to fire the weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/6 "2014-08-05T15:05:03Z")
[Here’s another](http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/24200615/2013/12/12/girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter-after-accidental-shooting), also in Florida, in which a woman accidentally shot her boyfriend with a firearm that she was unaware that he had loaded; she was charged with manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/7 "2014-08-05T17:01:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Here’s another](http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/24200615/2013/12/12/girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter-after-accidental-shooting), also in Florida, in which a woman accidentally shot her boyfriend with a firearm that she was unaware that he had loaded; she was charged with manslaughter. Reading thru the article seems to suggest that there might be more to the story than a simple accident. The brother of the victim said they argued a lot, and a neighbor said he heard arguing before the shooting (other witnesses disagree). And the shooter had been smoking marijuana before the incident. And the circumstances indicate that it was not the kind of accident where you drop the gun and it goes off. > [@](#): > > Mandy thought it was unloaded, she told investigators. > > “It appears that he left and went into the bedroom for a brief period of time and while he was in the bedroom, he loaded the gun, left it on the bed and then his girlfriend came in and was unaware that he had loaded the gun,” said Michael Puetz, Public Information Officer for the St. Petersburg Police Department. > > Then, she pointed the gun and pulled the trigger, Puetz said. Michael was rushed to the hospital where he died. Deliberately pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger goes a bit beyond “accidental”, IMnon-lawyerO. [Likewise for this one.](http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/crime-law/17-year-old-charged-in-accidental-palm-beach-garde/ngtYX/) I don’t know the circumstances of the case in the OP, but pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger strikes me as rather different from leaving it unattended. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/8 "2014-08-05T17:22:07Z")
If the fear of killing oneself or another person isn’t enough to scare someone into being a more responsible gun-owner, I don’t see how jail time would be a better deterent. Unless gun-owners were subjected to inspection. I don’t speed on the highway not because I’m safety-minded, but because I don’t want to see blue lights in my rearview mirror. Maybe if permitted gun owners knew that at any time, the authorities might drop in on them to see if their weapons are properly secured, you’d see more people being more responsible. But this isn’t really a practical solution. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/9 "2014-08-05T17:46:34Z")
Proving negligence is far more difficult then people realize. This is well documented in just the charge and conviction rates of a far more common form of driving while texting which is just as dangerous of a behavior. Both should be gross negligence and lead to a manslaughter conviction but the burden of proof is difficult and expensive to take to court. But in almost every state in the nation the case in the OP is 3rd degree murder or manslaughter by gross negligence. The acts by themselves are criminal recklessness are criminal endangerment…but proving that in court is also not easy. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/10 "2014-08-05T18:31:11Z")
Irresponsible and responsible gun use should be targeted, with differing punishments ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/11 "2014-08-05T19:07:21Z")
Within the last few years, I’ve come to believe that many “it just went off/I didn’t know it was loaded” injury and death accidents were actually “accidents;” that is, thinly disguised, often premeditated, homicides. As a gun owner and RKBA supporter, I have zero problem with some form of prosecution of AD’s/ND’s that lead to injury or death. As far as increased costs, this is one thing I don’t get. Other than upkeep, our courthouses are already paid for. Our judges, bailiffs, clerks, etc., are also already paid for (their salaries already accounted for in the budgets). Same with DAs and ADAs. So other than the incarceration costs (in the event of a successful prosecution), which hit a different budget line, where’s the “additional costs” coming from to _prosecute_ people for firearm negligence? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/12 "2014-08-05T19:09:47Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Irresponsible and responsible gun use should be targeted, with differing punishments :dubious: Care to clarify that a bit? It seems as though you’re advocating punishing lawful, responsible gun use. IOW, if I go to the shooting range, and lawfully and responsibly shoot at targets, and then go home without incident, I should be punished? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/13 "2014-08-05T19:15:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Reading thru the article seems to suggest that there might be more to the story than a simple accident. The brother of the victim said they argued a lot, and a neighbor said he heard arguing before the shooting (other witnesses disagree). And the shooter had been smoking marijuana before the incident. > > And the circumstances indicate that it was not the kind of accident where you drop the gun and it goes off. > Deliberately pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger goes a bit beyond “accidental”, IMnon-lawyerO. [Likewise for this one.](http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/crime-law/17-year-old-charged-in-accidental-palm-beach-garde/ngtYX/) > > I don’t know the circumstances of the case in the OP, but pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger strikes me as rather different from leaving it unattended. > > Regards, > Shodan Details are a bit light, but I’m presuming that the trigger was pulled on the revolver that killed the woman, Katherine Hoover, in the case the OP referred to. The various articles, [like this one](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/pregnant-fla-woman-unborn-baby-die-shot-head-cops-article-1.1882503), just refer to the gun discharging while the owner was showing it to Mrs. Hoover and her husband. Barring some freak occurance like the sear breaking with the hammer back and letting the hammer fall, it’s a very safe bet that the trigger was accidentally pulled, so that case is of a kind with the other two I cited. Slam-fires (which happened to me once with an SKS, a pretty terrifying experience, luckily the rifle was pointed safely downrange), parts breakage, and such do happen, but far more often these cases involve either an inadvertant trigger pull, or a deliberate trigger pull with a mistaken belief that the weapon is unloaded. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/14 "2014-08-05T19:35:15Z")
I don’t know that we need a law specifically covering negligence for firearms owners resulting in injuries or death. Shouldn’t this be covered over the general laws on negligence? We don’t have a law against shooting people to death. We have a law against murder. It’s just as illegal to kill someone with a knife as with a gun, as it should be. If a person accidentally shoots a toddler is this worse than if they accidentally drop the toddler off of a balcony? Assuming both cases were clear negligence, does it matter the method? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/15 "2014-08-05T19:38:59Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Within the last few years, I’ve come to believe that many “it just went off/I didn’t know it was loaded” injury and death accidents were actually “accidents;” that is, thinly disguised, often premeditated, homicides. There was one of these a few years back in MA. It was a cop. Who insisted his wife go hunting with him, even though she doesn’t hunt. She brings their dog. He shoots her as soon as they get in the woods. He even had a buddy come with him to act as a witness to back up his story that he thought the dog was a deer so he shot the wife. It seemed awfully fishy to me. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/16 "2014-08-05T19:51:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know that we need a law specifically covering negligence for firearms owners resulting in injuries or death. Shouldn’t this be covered over the general laws on negligence? I tend to agree. The current laws in regards to negligence, depraved indifference, etc., etc. see adequate enough to me. There really aren’t all that many deaths due to accidental firearm discharges per year. What would narrowly tailored laws regarding firearms and negligence accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/17 "2014-08-05T19:54:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Slam-fires (which happened to me once with an SKS, a pretty terrifying experience, luckily the rifle was pointed safely downrange), parts breakage, and such do happen, but far more often these cases involve either an inadvertant trigger pull, or a deliberate trigger pull with a mistaken belief that the weapon is unloaded. I for one would be OK with the idea of treating “I dropped the gun on a cement floor and it went off” or “my hand slipped and I inadvertantly pulled the trigger” differently from pointing a gun at someone and deliberately pulling the trigger in the mistaken belief that it is unloaded. I can see the first two being an accident. The last isn’t an accident. That’s the problem with stupidity - it is something people do on purpose. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/18 "2014-08-05T20:18:41Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > :dubious: Care to clarify that a bit? > > It seems as though you’re advocating punishing lawful, responsible gun use. > > IOW, if I go to the shooting range, and lawfully and responsibly shoot at targets, and then go home without incident, I should be punished? I am not a supporter of gun rights. At all ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/19 "2014-08-05T20:35:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I for one would be OK with the idea of treating “I dropped the gun on a cement floor and it went off” or “my hand slipped and I inadvertantly pulled the trigger” differently from pointing a gun at someone and deliberately pulling the trigger in the mistaken belief that it is unloaded. I can see the first two being an accident. The last isn’t an accident. That’s the problem with stupidity - it is something people do on purpose. > > Regards, > Shodan An inadvertent trigger pull that results in someone being shot is also negligent and, to my mind, deserving of manslaughter charges, since it can only happen when the firearm is pointed at another person. I’d agree that a dropped firearm is a mere accident, though. Technology is mooting that issue, though, with the array of passive safety features on today’s firearms, particularly handguns. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868/20 "2014-08-05T20:35:51Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > As far as increased costs, this is one thing I don’t get. Other than upkeep, our courthouses are already paid for. Our judges, bailiffs, clerks, etc., are also already paid for (their salaries already accounted for in the budgets). Same with DAs and ADAs. > > So other than the incarceration costs (in the event of a successful prosecution), which hit a different budget line, where’s the “additional costs” coming from to _prosecute_ people for firearm negligence? DAs and ADAs and judges and bailiffs and clerks aren’t just sitting around wasting time while they wait for a case. If you prosecute additional cases of firearms negligence, then either you are _not_ prosecuting some other cases, or you are hiring more ADAs, judges, etc., for the increased caseload. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-should-the-irresponsible-handling-of-guns-be-specifically-targeted-by-law/694868.md?page=2)