# Can social conditioning lead to genetic changes ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352 "2015-11-01T18:03:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/1 "2015-11-01T18:03:37Z")
In Belyaev’s Russian fox experiments selection for tameness produces physical changes in foxes within 10 generations. Can a similar selection for tameness happen in people by means of multiple generations living in a stable society, nation or religion especially if the selection is violent ? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/2 "2015-11-01T21:25:04Z")
How do you have violent selection in a stable society? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/3 "2015-11-01T22:02:20Z")
Don’t know what you mean. Selection means continued breeding with subjects that have the desired traits, and elimination of those that don’t. What kind of atmosphere the selection occurs in or how it’s done is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/4 "2015-11-01T22:05:08Z")
Social conditioning is something entirely different than selection for tameness. In the fox experiments selection is severe (which you pretty much have to have in order to get changes in a relatively short amount of time). Only about 5% of males and 20% of females are selected for breeding. The associated physical changes seen are for the most part juvenile traits. You could only enforce that kind of selection in a human society under extreme repression. It would not be a “stable society.” It would be unlikely that any such regime could last the 250 years needed to carry out such a program for 10 generations. However, if it were possibly to enforce that kind of selection for docile behavior, I think it’s likely that one might see correlated physical changes in the direction of juvenile traits. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/5 "2015-11-02T03:33:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Social conditioning is something entirely different than selection for tameness. > > In the fox experiments selection is severe (which you pretty much have to have in order to get changes in a relatively short amount of time). Only about 5% of males and 20% of females are selected for breeding. The associated physical changes seen are for the most part juvenile traits. > > You could only enforce that kind of selection in a human society under extreme repression. It would not be a “stable society.” It would be unlikely that any such regime could last the 250 years needed to carry out such a program for 10 generations. > > However, if it were possibly to enforce that kind of selection for docile behavior, I think it’s likely that one might see correlated physical changes in the direction of juvenile traits. Hmm, no I don’t think that’s quite true, although yes many violent societies would be unstable. I was thinking of Russia, mainly, not least because that’s where the research is. On the religion side you have long periods in which social success is predicated on respecting and following the religion, and that can be extremely severe over long periods - inquisitions, holy wars etc, and just the normal day to day pressure of conformity. I was thinking more 200 years for 10 generations, but now I think about it it could be much less, given variance of breeding age down history. Also, homo sapiens is known to have more neotenous features than previous hominid species, there has been natural genetic selection along those lines. Dogs and tame foxes are noted for having more neotenous features, but due to guided breeding. Says ye ? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/6 "2015-11-02T03:39:21Z")
…obviously if humans are less malleable than canines then you would expect a longer time. I was going by Dawkins’ assessment. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/7 "2015-11-02T03:49:45Z")
…actually I just found more material and the effect is seen after only six generations. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/l0XFFVEEP-A/maxresdefault.jpg "Richard Dawkins - Evidence For Evolution - Domestication of Foxes") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0XFFVEEP-A) So that’s what, possibly under 100 years for humans ? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/8 "2015-11-02T03:59:03Z")
Social conditioning might/can lead to epigenetic changes which can be transmitted to further generation. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/9 "2015-11-02T16:39:05Z")
Epigenetics is another factor yes. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/10 "2015-11-02T16:43:18Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > However, if it were possibly to enforce that kind of selection for docile behavior, I think it’s likely that one might see correlated physical changes in the direction of juvenile traits. So basically that’s what anthropologists have been saying is the case, and why our physiology is less robust than our ancestors like neanderthals and further back. Less brow, less jaw, bigger eye sockets, that sort of stuff. Smaller brains too, in common with other domesticated animals. So when you have a long lasting political or religious regime selecting it’s population for certain traits, or to respond to certain power holding groups, i wonder if it happens ? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/11 "2015-11-02T16:49:47Z")
Selective breeding can show results in a small number of generations, that’s not the same thing as natural selection. In your scenario the overlords would have to control all the reproduction, ensuring those with the desired traits would reproduce with each other, and preventing the others from reproducing. I don’t know if even under an intense selective breeding program humans would produce the same results as foxes. The foxes used may not have had the same kind of genetic diversity as humans and breeding out traits based on the perception of complex human behavior may not effectively select for particular genes. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/12 "2015-11-02T17:15:50Z")
I don’t have it in me today to tackle any of this like it deserves. But no human society has been around long enough to consistently apply enough selective pressure to affect any sort of measurable evolutionary change in humans purely through social pressure. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/13 "2015-11-02T17:17:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Selective breeding can show results in a small number of generations, that’s not the same thing as natural selection. In your scenario the overlords would have to control all the reproduction, ensuring those with the desired traits would reproduce with each other, and preventing the others from reproducing. > > I don’t know if even under an intense selective breeding program humans would produce the same results as foxes. The foxes used may not have had the same kind of genetic diversity as humans and breeding out traits based on the perception of complex human behavior may not effectively select for particular genes. Well, religion offers a cradle to grave obedience selection process, and we look at how irrationally attached many people are to their religious leaders. It’s usually attributed to conditioning and psychological reasons (by non-religious people anyway), but I wonder if it’s become hardwired for some ? After all, it’s not very controversial that some genes make people harder to govern - MAO-A “warrior” gene allele and etc. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/14 "2015-11-02T19:16:31Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > In Belyaev’s Russian fox experiments selection for tameness produces physical changes in foxes within 10 generations. IIRC, Soviet genetics education, training and research was heavily tainted with Lamarckism until very recently, and they have struggled to remove that nonsense from their curricula and protocols. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/15 "2015-11-02T19:37:39Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Well, religion offers a cradle to grave obedience selection process, and we look at how irrationally attached many people are to their religious leaders. It’s usually attributed to conditioning and psychological reasons (by non-religious people anyway), but I wonder if it’s become hardwired for some ? > > After all, it’s not very controversial that some genes make people harder to govern - MAO-A “warrior” gene allele and etc. People get attached to non-religious leaders also. But it is a lot easier for a person to spoof the selection mechanism than a fox. Now, I know of an example where breeding changes behavior - for guide dogs. Working guide dogs are not like other dogs - they are not dog distracted, they seldom bark, and they are extremely gentle with everyone. This is done two ways. First, any puppy showing the slightest bit of aggressiveness gets career changed very quickly. Dogs not having these characteristics get selected against. Second, there is a deliberate breeding bottleneck. Only somewhere around 5% of dogs (maybe less) with the very best characteristics get selected as breeders. Over 20 - 30 years this spreads desired traits through the population relatively quickly. Each breeder is expected to have two litters of about 8 every year. I don’t know how they did fox breeding, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were similar. For it to work on humans you’d have to restrict reproduction far more than possible, make women have very large numbers of children, keep people from faking devotion or obedience, and do this throughout reproductive life. And has been mentioned the goals would have to be kept stable for far longer than societies ever do. So I’m not buying you can have any significant change in 100 or 200 years. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/16 "2015-11-02T23:41:54Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > IIRC, Soviet genetics education, training and research was heavily tainted with Lamarckism until very recently, and they have struggled to remove that nonsense from their curricula and protocols. Interesting you say that, because Belyaev had to go out of the way in Siberia to conduct his research, avoiding upsetting the gov. I think he told the gov he would be just breeding for fur. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-social-conditioning-lead-to-genetic-changes/736352/17 "2015-11-02T23:47:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > People get attached to non-religious leaders also. > But it is a lot easier for a person to spoof the selection mechanism than a fox. > Now, I know of an example where breeding changes behavior - for guide dogs. Working guide dogs are not like other dogs - they are not dog distracted, they seldom bark, and they are extremely gentle with everyone. > This is done two ways. First, any puppy showing the slightest bit of aggressiveness gets career changed very quickly. Dogs not having these characteristics get selected against. > Second, there is a deliberate breeding bottleneck. Only somewhere around 5% of dogs (maybe less) with the very best characteristics get selected as breeders. Over 20 - 30 years this spreads desired traits through the population relatively quickly. Each breeder is expected to have two litters of about 8 every year. > I don’t know how they did fox breeding, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it were similar. > For it to work on humans you’d have to restrict reproduction far more than possible, make women have very large numbers of children, keep people from faking devotion or obedience, and do this throughout reproductive life. And has been mentioned the goals would have to be kept stable for far longer than societies ever do. So I’m not buying you can have any significant change in 100 or 200 years. Yeah I was thinking of religion because of it’s longevity and stability of doctrine. Thinking of England, Kings and Queens come and go, and territories and loyalties change more often than church doctrine - correct me if I’m wrong, though. But monarchy as an institution itself, I wonder if that’s a selectable loyalty ? For dogs and foxes the genetic tameness seems to be general towards humans and probably other animals, but that underlies any individual imprinted loyalty to any particular person.