# Can some one explain what's going on in Brazil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 20, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701 "2016-04-20T02:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/1 "2016-04-20T02:35:33Z")
I don’t know enough about Brazil to make sense of what I see in the news. Something about the current President of Brazil giving a position to the former President, which sheltered the former president from a corruption inquiry by granting prosecutorial immunity? And now the current President is facing impeachment, with her opponents saying it’s because she sheltered a corrupt ally, and her supporters saying it’s just partisan payback? Is that any where near accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/2 "2016-04-20T02:48:38Z")
You have it a bit backwards. The lower house of congress has voted to impeach President Dilma Rousseff. She is accused of violating budgetary rules by borrowing from the state treasury to cover a shortfall in the government deficit and pay for social programs. If the Senate approves the impeachment, she will have to step down temporarily while she undergoes trial by the Senate. Her predecessor and mentor Luiz Inacio Lula de Silva (Lula) is under investigation on separate corruption charges. She appointed him her chief of staff to give him immunity from the charges, but that appointment was put on hold by a judge. In addition, many of Rousseff’s opponents in Congress are also under investigation for various corruption schemes. ---
**Author:** ![funky\_little\_lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/3 "2016-04-20T03:24:17Z")
In short: business as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/4 "2016-04-20T03:46:15Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > In short: business as usual. No, absolutely not. Before none of these people would have ever been prosecuted. Corruption has been endemic, but investigations and prosecutions never got anywhere near this far. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/5 "2016-04-20T03:55:13Z")
So, Brazilian politics as usual, with a dose of outrage. News at 11. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/6 "2016-04-20T04:03:59Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > So, Brazilian politics as usual, with a dose of outrage. News at 11. As I said, no it’s not. It’s corruption as usual, but the fact that people at this level might actually be called to account for it is unprecedented. Lula was an immensely popular president who is credited with having both built the Brazilian economy and helped the poor. If he ends up being charged, it would be like having done the same to FDR. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/7 "2016-04-20T04:39:20Z")
CORRUPTION - We’re all in this together. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/8 "2016-04-20T05:01:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No, absolutely not. Before none of these people would have ever been prosecuted. Corruption has been endemic I was just in Brazil last November. The language barrier was pretty heavy there. The few people we spoke with that spoke any English were quick to start ranting about how corrupt their government was. We didn’t ask them anything about it. They just volunteered the opinion. We went on 2 excursions and during the tours even the guides kept going on about how crooked their leaders were. Been to a helluva lot of countries and never experienced anything like that before! ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/9 "2016-04-20T05:29:01Z")
Which seems consistent with what Colibri is saying. Corruption isn’t new, but politicians being called to account for it _is_ new. And this may be because of rising public anger about corruption. It’s not uncommon for problems that have been accepted with a “what can you do?” shrug for years suddenly to become the focus of public concern. We’ve already seen this happen in the US with the rate at which people are killed by the police, and in several western countries with attitudes to sexual offences involving children. Obviously something similar is happening in Brazil with respect to official corruption. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/10 "2016-04-20T06:06:21Z")
See this informative article about this being one of the typical South American coups planned somewhere else. [http://thewire.in/2016/03/25/a-coup-is-in-the-air-the-plot-to-unsettle-rousseff-lula-and-brazil-25893/](http://thewire.in/2016/03/25/a-coup-is-in-the-air-the-plot-to-unsettle-rousseff-lula-and-brazil-25893/) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/11 "2016-04-20T13:25:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Her predecessor and mentor Luiz Inacio Lula de Silva (Lula) is under investigation on separate corruption charges. She appointed him her chief of staff to give him immunity from the charges, but that appointment was put on hold by a judge. That’s an interesting quirk of Brazilian law: that appointment to a cabinet post immunizes a person from prosecution for crimes that predate the appointment. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/12 "2016-04-20T14:08:22Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No, absolutely not. Before none of these people would have ever been prosecuted. Corruption has been endemic, but investigations and prosecutions never got anywhere near this far. My favorite quote story about Brazilian corruption cases is from one of the prosecutors involved: “It always ends with a pizza party”. That is, even when corruption cases are brought and won, the defendants always seem to win on appeal and celebrate with a party. Corruption in Brazil seems to be widespread. Enhanced by the recent run-up in resource prices. Now that the money is drying up, more cases are coming to light. What interests me is the apparently strong legal structure in the country. These cases are arousing public ire because they are being investigated and publicized. In most places the public structures: lawyers prosecutors reporters and publications, for this don’t exist. Brazil deserves a lot of credit for building these structures and supporting them. Now they need to work on their public integrity laws and their culture of graft. Unfortunately the people in charge of the laws are the ones most in fear of better laws. But the voters seem to have a message. Hopefully that message will result in better governance. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/13 "2016-04-20T14:21:36Z")
It’s interesting that this sort of thing has been happening increasingly in other countries of Latin America. In some countries, former presidents have actually gone to jail, which was unimaginable before. Panama’s previous president, Ricardo Martinelli, is currently on the run in Florida from charges of corruption and [spying on his political enemies](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35159143) during his term; there is a warrant for his arrest. While there are elements of political payback here, and his enemies are not entirely clean themselves, Martinelli raised corruption to entirely new levels in Panama, which is saying a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/14 "2016-04-20T14:26:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s an interesting quirk of Brazilian law: that appointment to a cabinet post immunizes a person from prosecution for crimes that predate the appointment. :eek: Happens in Spain too, and not only for cabinet members. So long as you’re holding those positions you’re immune from prosecution for anything. I’m feeling too lazy to try and investigate it, but I suspect it may be quite widespread (at the very least, Portugal, Spain, our ex-colonies, Italy, maybe France… which would mean probably her ex-colonies…). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/15 "2016-04-20T14:36:21Z")
One of the more hilarious aspects of the Martinelli saga is that immediately after leaving office he became a member of the Central American Congress in order to gain immunity, a body he had previously denounced as a “den of thieves.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/16 "2016-04-20T15:59:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s an interesting quirk of Brazilian law: that appointment to a cabinet post immunizes a person from prosecution for crimes that predate the appointment. :eek: In theory, I suppose it could reflect a concern about misuse of power in the other direction, that a prosecutor with an independent power base in opposition would attempt to hamstring the legitimate operation of government by bringing spurious charges against its officials. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/17 "2016-04-20T17:01:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s an interesting quirk of Brazilian law: that appointment to a cabinet post immunizes a person from prosecution for crimes that predate the appointment. :eek: It’s not qute that bad. A cabinet level official can only be prosecuted in the [Supreme Court.](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-15/lula-said-to-agree-in-principle-to-take-brazil-cabinet-position) There have been protests going for over a year. The previous President (Lula) is being indicted on corruption charges relating to Operation Carwash([Lava-Jato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash)) The short version is that for the past several years, the state controlled petroleum company (Petrobras) was paying higher prices on construction contracts because they had a kickback scheme going with various executives of construction companies having paid kickbacks to various politicians and Petrobras executives. The head of the House of Representatives (Eduardo Cunha) is also implicated. This isn’t limited to one particular party but rather seems to be across the spectrum. What hasn’t helped the government is that the fall in commodities prices has left the economy of Brazil in really bad shape. The currency has lost a lot of value, and the economy has shrunk 3.5 % this year. I have family down there including a cousin who is a lawyer, and he was telling me that they switched the way people became judges a few years ago. Now, you have to pass an exam similar to our civil service exam to get a judgeship as opposed to being indicated by an insider. This has helped professionalize things and cut down the amount of favors owed by the judiciary to the political class. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/18 "2016-04-20T17:10:55Z")
I should add that while Dilma (the Current President) isn’t directly implicated in the Carwash scandal, she was a director at Petrobras while some of this was going on. I suspect that the charges she is being impeached on are a pretext for impeaching her. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/19 "2016-04-20T17:28:00Z")
> [@Caffeine.addict](#): > > I should add that while Dilma (the Current President) isn’t directly implicated in the Carwash scandal, she was a director at Petrobras while some of this was going on. I suspect that the charges she is being impeached on are a pretext for impeaching her. Probably. But she’s also being impeached because as you say the economy has gone to shit. Not to mention that Brazil lost 1-7 to Germany in the World Cup. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701/20 "2016-04-20T17:41:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Happens in Spain too, and not only for cabinet members. So long as you’re holding those positions you’re immune from prosecution for anything. I’m feeling too lazy to try and investigate it, but I suspect it may be quite widespread (at the very least, Portugal, Spain, our ex-colonies, Italy, maybe France… which would mean probably her ex-colonies…). Not in France. The only person immune from prosecution is the president, and even that is fairly recent, dating back to a dozen years, when courts decided that then president Chirac couldn’t be prosecuted while in office for a crime comitted before because it would give the judiciary an unaceptable power over the executive (the case was prosecuted and went to trial after he left office). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-some-one-explain-whats-going-on-in-brazil/752701.md?page=2)