# Can someone break down this whole Nunes Memo thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308 "2018-01-23T16:50:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/341 "2018-02-03T02:32:04Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > The personal aspect is his desperation that Trump not be elected…the professional aspect is the money. Could it be that he was desperate to not get Trump elected because of his research? If I find that a teacher at a local school is a serial child molester, and try to turn him into the police, should they discount my evidence because I’m desperate to get him fired? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/342 "2018-02-03T02:45:44Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Could it be that he was desperate to not get Trump elected because of his research? If I find that a teacher at a local school is a serial child molester, and try to turn him into the police, should they discount my evidence because I’m desperate to get him fired? Could be…as I said upthread. I would hope that a spy wouldn’t form a conclusion like that without verifying the information. Did he consider that it was Russian propaganda since he was paying Kremlin sources? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/343 "2018-02-03T03:06:32Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Could be…as I said upthread. I would hope that a spy wouldn’t form a conclusion like that without verifying the information. Did he consider that it was Russian propaganda since he was paying Kremlin sources? No, the former head of British espionage in Russia never considered that spies would lie to him. You broke the whole thing wide open. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/344 "2018-02-03T03:28:10Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Could be…as I said upthread. …is that a quote from Steele? Is that what he actually said, or is that the Ohr’s perception of what Steele was feeling? Its being portrayed as the former but a plain text reading of the memo suggests the latter. If it is the latter: then you are putting an awful lot of value on a cherry-picked out-of-context bit of information. Steeles boss made it clear that they only went to the FBI in the first place because they believed the information that they had showed a strong likelihood that the Trump campaign was compromised. They had no obligation to do so. So of course he had passionate beliefs. He thought the democratic processes in the biggest most powerful country in the history of the world were being messed with: and they had evidence to back it up. Why would you expect him to be “impartial?” They stopped co-operating with the FBI because they started to develop the belief that the FBI might be compromised. (The Nunes Memo suggests otherwise: ironically without the underlying information from the FBI we can’t actually verify this.) > [@](#): > > I would hope that a spy wouldn’t form a conclusion like that without verifying the information. I think its an entirely reasonable position for someone to hold. And after a year of the Trump administration it appears to be entirely the correct position to hold. > [@](#): > > Did he consider that it was Russian propaganda since he was paying Kremlin sources? Cite for the payments please. And of course he considered it. And he would have considered that his sources could be mistaken, and he would consider that his sources could be lying to him and he would be considering that he was being fed false information. Which is why he didn’t rely on single sources. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/345 "2018-02-03T03:30:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > An appeal to your personal “insight” is a fallacious argument. Since you typically make no verifiable claims on this board, and instead just ask question after question, finally you say something for which I can say, cite? No, seriously. Explain how expertise is a fallacious argument. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/346 "2018-02-03T03:46:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What counts is whether the FBI, in pushing for the application, misled the judge about this for political reasons. That would be a shame. Oh wait. > [@](#): > > A Democratic memo written to counter a Republican document released Friday claims that the government presented additional evidence that would undercut the GOP conclusion, according to The New York Times. > > Democrats have claimed key information was omitted in the Republican document, which was based on classified documents that have not been released. > > Republicans say in their now-public memo that the FBI did not reveal that information underlying a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) request came from a politically motivated source. > > The Democratic countermemo reportedly claims that the FBI did reveal the source of the information was politically motivated, according to two Times sources. > > [The Hill](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/372084-democratic-countermemo-claims-fbi-revealed-steele-bias-in-fisa) Also, even if the Democratic Memo is incorrect, why does it even matter? > [@](#): > > (T)hat doesn’t change the fact that much of what Steele found—muddled as it may be by rumor, innuendo, and possible Russian disinformation—was deemed sufficiently credible by the F.B.I. for the agency to begin working with Steele and, ultimately, to fund his research—at least until his name was made public. The broader intelligence community found the allegations sufficiently credible that they gave classified briefings to members of Congress and, in January, days before the inauguration, presented a two-page synopsis to then-President Obama and President-elect Trump. Many of those details have since been confirmed… > > [Vanity Fair](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/10/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-dossier) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/347 "2018-02-03T03:53:18Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The memo even flat out states in item 5 that the investigation was initiated by the FBI investigation of Papadopolous. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s not what it says. (“an … investigation”, not “the investigation”) I didn’t read much ahead but I do hope that people pointed and laughed at this hilarious equivocation. Oddly enough, a sizable number of pundits in various media have not been as charitable as our fine Trump Water-Carrier. > [@](#): > > But, even after reading only the Republicans’ memo, we can say two things. First, the F.B.I. and the Justice Department didn’t base their application to monitor Page entirely on Steele’s work. And, second, and more important, the Trump-Russia investigation didn’t begin with the Steele dossier. These two facts are there in that lonely paragraph on the fourth page of the Nunes memo. This is how it begins: “The Page fisa application also mentions information regarding fellow Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos, but there is no evidence of any cooperation or conspiracy between Page and Papadopoulos. The Papadopoulos information triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016 by FBI agent Peter Strzok.” > > In other words, the Trump-Russia probe began with an investigation of Papadopoulos, a young foreign-policy aide to the Trump campaign, who last year pleaded guilty to lying to the F.B.I. A Times story in December provided basically the same account, but this isn’t a newspaper report: it is an official memo written by congressional staff members quoting a secret F.B.I. court filing. Far from confirming the conspiracy theory promoted by Trump, Hannity, and Fitton, the Nunes memo contradicts a central element of it. No wonder that some people in the White House, including the chief of staff, John Kelly, were reportedly less enthusiastic about releasing it than Trump was. (“Rising White House fear: Nunes Memo is a dud,” a headline at Axios read on Thursday.) > > [The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-nunes-memo-undermines-the-rights-trump-russia-conspiracy-theory) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/348 "2018-02-03T03:56:51Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Depends on the investigation. > > Blown counter-intelligence investigation? Damn right it’s grave. Besides the fact that I didn’t say “grave”, perhaps you can say what exceptionally grave damage a blown counter-intelligence investigation can do to National Security? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/349 "2018-02-03T04:02:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > .And of course he considered it. And he would have considered that his sources could be mistaken, and he would consider that his sources could be lying to him and he would be considering that he was being fed false information. Which is why he didn’t rely on single sources. Lotsa folks gonna be "re"considering their intel supply channels now. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/350 "2018-02-03T04:05:48Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Lotsa folks gonna be "re"considering their intel supply channels now. That makes precisely no sense. Would you kindly elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/351 "2018-02-03T04:06:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Besides the fact that I didn’t say “grave”, perhaps you can say what exceptionally grave damage a blown counter-intelligence investigation can do to National Security? Really? Say the FBI suspects that the SVR is recruiting a member of the DOD that has access to military secrets. They don’t know who the person is, but are building a file based partially on phone taps. The case gets blown somehow. SVR changes up how they contact their agent and the chances of catching the guy are now much smaller. Result is Russia has defense secrets. Counterintelligence is really fucking highly classified. Compartmented for sure. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/352 "2018-02-03T04:08:30Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That makes precisely no sense. Would you kindly elaborate? Do you understand the concept of trust? If you think you do, then try to understand the concept of trusting people who would just as soon see you dead. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/353 "2018-02-03T04:09:12Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I’m still trying to figure out if you are dense or if you are just fucking with me. I’m trying to figure out if this is an insult or an accusation of trolling. I’m going to go with insult. This is a warning for personal insults. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/354 "2018-02-03T04:16:21Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That makes precisely no sense. Would you kindly elaborate? GOP will publicly discuss top secret information for political reasons. The UK specifically said they’d reconsider information sharing. Add that to the Israelis and Dutch that we know of. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/355 "2018-02-03T04:24:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Besides the fact that I didn’t say “grave”, perhaps you can say what exceptionally grave damage a blown counter-intelligence investigation can do to National Security? [Aldrich Ames](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames) and [Robert Hanssen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen) would be grave, if extreme, examples. People can die if moles or foreign agents are not identified in time, whether they be U.S. intelligence agents or foreign moles providing crucial intelligence to the U.S. In both of their cases, other individuals were suspected and sometimes even placed under surveillance or falsely accused of being foreign moles for the leaks done by Ames or Hanssen. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/356 "2018-02-03T04:40:34Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m trying to figure out if this is an insult or an accusation of trolling. I’m going to go with insult. This is a warning for personal insults. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. > > [/moderating] My apologies for stepping out of line. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/357 "2018-02-03T04:42:34Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > “Steele was a longtime FBI source who was paid over $160,000 by the DNC and Clinton campaign, via the law firm Perkins Coie and research firm Fusion GPS, to obtain derogatory information on Donald Trump’s ties to Russia.” Honest question: Why is this relevant regarding a warrant against Carter Page? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/358 "2018-02-03T04:57:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Cite for the payments please. > **[Clinton Ally Michael Morell says no evidence of Trump-Russia collusion](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/clinton-ally-says-smoke-no-fire-no-russia-trump-collusion-n734176)** > > Ex-Acting CIA Director Michael Morell says there's no evidence of Trump camp-Russia collusion: "There is smoke, but there is no fire, at all." > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And of course he considered it. And he would have considered that his sources could be mistaken, and he would consider that his sources could be lying to him and he would be considering that he was being fed false information. Which is why he didn’t rely on single sources. And yet nothing of substance concerning Trump has been verified to date. Steele admitted that the claims were not verified. I think that if he was so sure Trump was colluding with the Russians then he is a fool. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/359 "2018-02-03T04:58:07Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Lotsa folks gonna be "re"considering their intel supply channels now. …well of course. One of Steeles sources is now dead. Dead people are a poor source of intel. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308/360 "2018-02-03T05:06:00Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > [Clinton Ally Says Smoke, But No Fire: No Russia-Trump Collusion](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/clinton-ally-says-smoke-no-fire-no-russia-trump-collusion-n734176) …give me a break. Is that what you are relying on? > **[Congress told Trump dossier sources not paid | CNN Politics](https://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/15/politics/russia-investigation-fusion-gps-glenn-simpson-dossier/index.html)** > > Congress was told the ex-British intelligence agent who wrote the opposition research dossier on Donald Trump and Russia did not pay his sources, per sources. “The ex-British intelligence agent who authored the opposition research dossier on President Donald Trump and Russia did not pay the sources he used to compile the document, Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn Simpson testified to congressional Russia investigators, multiple sources familiar with the matter told CNN.” Fusion claims they didn’t pay their sources. Your cite has somebody claiming that he had “learned” that Fusion had paid their sources. I’ll take the congressional testimony over hearsay thanks. > [@](#): > > And yet nothing of substance concerning Trump has been verified to date. Do you mean “nothing of substance at all” or “nothing of substance” from the dossier? > [@](#): > > Steele admitted that the claims were not verified. Cite please? Which claims in particular? To what standard of verification? > [@](#): > > I think that if he was so sure Trump was colluding with the Russians then he is a fool. I don’t think you know what Steele was thinking at all. I’m not even sure you’ve read the dossier in question. Have you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-break-down-this-whole-nunes-memo-thing/807308.md?page=19)