# Can someone concisely formulate what makes torture so immoral? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903 "2014-12-22T11:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/181 "2015-03-06T02:08:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is really a stretch to assume that the enemy does not also take into account that possibility when one of their members disappears. It makes their information next to useless. > > Same issues as the other one, it is really naive to think that the enemy at those levels would not be ready to make efforts so the information that the ones being tortured could give to the enemy could be used against the enemy too. As an example IIRC there was once a rebel radio in El Salvador where the military obtained information of the location of the radio broadcast unit of the guerrillas, some of the info was obtained by torture, the proud military thugs took the radio equipment into their helicopter to display their price in the capital city. The army commander that had organized the Mozote massacre was blown to bits in the air with the device that was inside the false radio broadcast unit. > > And then I do have my suspicions that many Al-Qaeda terrorists that were captured did want to see the USA to get involved in Iraq. Well, I said if you dismantled my points I would have no argument left. I don’t think I can discredit anything you said, in fact I think it is entirely correct but to be quite honest I am caught up in a debate so saying “I agree with you 100%” is not something I am likely to say, at least at this moment so I will just repeat that you made very good points, ones that I don’t think I can discredit or disprove in any way. So, yes, I have to agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/182 "2015-03-06T02:09:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > well its hypocrisy. calling it a “conflict of interest” is just trying to make it sound better You’re wrong. A conflict of interest _is the reason why we don’t trust people with a direct interest to make critical decisions that have enormous consequences for other people_. It means that in certain states of mind, you can’t be trusted with important decision. It’s not because someone is a hypocrite. It’s not because someone is a bad person. It’s because in certain situations, you are unable to properly weigh harms and benefits, relative consequences, the public interest, etc. So no matter how many times you ask, “What if it were you?” my only answer is “That’s the wrong question.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/183 "2015-03-06T02:09:40Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so you are 100% certain torture is NEVER acceptable under any circumstances??? are you so committed to a philosophical or moral principle that you can’t see ANY situation where it would be appropriate? As evil, mean, and ruthless as I assume you think I am (which I am not) I think you are not being honest if you maintain that it is NEVER appropriate under any circumstances. > > But why bother, I’m sure you think I’m evil and I doubt you give any consideration to the fact that I might actually have a point to make. The only point you made was to make hypotheticals that do not show in real life. OTOH we can point to real life examples where it is clear that on many occasions the torturers told themselves that they had a point to make. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/184 "2015-03-06T02:14:19Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The crimes do happen. That torture will definitely stop those crimese is only in your head. I’ve only explained this to you 8 times now, so I’m not confident it will sink in. > > And for Pete’s sake, learn to use the Shift button. You know, there was a time when I would agreed with you. That was before I was an eyewitness to 9/11. I lived in that neighborhood. I saw the smoke burning for like a week or 10 days. So, I’m - not - saying it is a good idea or morally acceptable to go around torturing people who very well may be innocent. But if you capture someone in an actual training camp for terrorists, I’m going to have no sympathy, at all, for any pain or torture or discomfort they receive. Some random email that makes someone look guilty is a competently different category. But if you are actually caught in an actual terrorist training camp, then I have no sympathy for what happens to you, even if you have no vital information to give, whatever you suffer, you would deserve. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/185 "2015-03-06T02:15:59Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I think this is a completely reasonable assessment. But I have two situations I am skeptical of. If you can disprove them or dismantle them I would have to admit I have no argument left. > > Situation 1- you capture someone in a terrorist training camp. They may not know a lot but they will have some valuable information. > Situation 2- The CIA/NSA monitors a small group of individuals and determines they are planning an attack but critical details do not show up in emails/phone calls In the first situation, using more reliable methods of interrogation that neither harm the suspect nor taint the information is an absolutely better approach. In the second situation, simply apprehending the suspects would more likely disrupt the plot than apprehending one suspect, (or some random member of the group), and torturing them on the off chance that they actually have the crucial information, that they have not been fed misinformation by their own group to lead the questioners astray, and that the methods used by the torturers will not take just as long as other methods to arrive at the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/186 "2015-03-06T02:17:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You’re wrong. A conflict of interest _is the reason why we don’t trust people with a direct interest to make critical decisions that have enormous consequences for other people_. It means that in certain states of mind, you can’t be trusted with important decision. > > It’s not because someone is a hypocrite. It’s not because someone is a bad person. It’s because in certain situations, you are unable to properly weigh harms and benefits, relative consequences, the public interest, etc. > > So no matter how many times you ask, “What if it were you?” my only answer is “That’s the wrong question.” Well, I guess we are going to disagree. I’m sure it was stupid of me to even get involved in this discussion because people will obviously think I am evil and bad and ruthless but my point is life is not as simple as you think or profess. Maybe we can talk another time on another thread but I don’t think I have anything left to say on this topic. I see merit in your point of view and appreciate your comments but I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/187 "2015-03-06T02:18:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But if you are actually caught in an actual terrorist training camp, then I have no sympathy for what happens to you, even if you have no vital information to give, whatever you suffer, you would deserve. 1. So you approve of government agents summarily punishing people for crimes, without benefit of due process or a judgment of guilt before a disinterested tribunal? 2. So you approve of torture as a legislated punishment for crimes that can be used for sentencing convicted criminals? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/188 "2015-03-06T02:21:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In the first situation, using more reliable methods of interrogation that neither harm the suspect nor taint the information is an absolutely better approach. > In the second situation, simply apprehending the suspects would more likely disrupt the plot than apprehending one suspect, (or some random member of the group), and torturing them on the off chance that they actually have the crucial information, that they have not been fed misinformation by their own group to lead the questioners astray, and that the methods used by the torturers will not take just as long as other methods to arrive at the truth. Well, I have to say again, that I have to agree with you. I think my hatred of terrorists blinded me to any other point of view than violence and revenge but looking at it objectively I can see and admit that I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/189 "2015-03-06T02:24:28Z")
And you keep avoiding the implications of the more important question— “What if you were the one being threatened with torture?” You know you are innocent. You know you have no information. You know you are in a circumstance that looks bad from the outside, but you can’t get anyone to believe you. We know for a fact that there were dozens of people sent to Guantanamo with no evidence of connections to the Taliban or to Al Qaeda or to anything else. They were turned in to curry favor with the occupiers, to settle personal scores, and for other selfish reasons. Completely innocent people were held for years and tortured for no reason whatsoever. Their lives were ruined for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not being able to persuade anyone to believe them. We know for a fact that happened. We also know that the ticking time bomb scenario has happened only in fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/190 "2015-03-06T02:25:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. So you approve of government agents summarily punishing people for crimes, without benefit of due process or a judgment of guilt before a disinterested tribunal? > > 2. So you approve of torture as a legislated punishment for crimes that can be used for sentencing convicted criminals? Look, don’t expect me to change too much too soon. I can admit that torture will be ineffective in almost every single case but I’m not ready to have any concern or sympathy for the civil rights or physical safety of someone actually caught in an actual terrorist training camp. Before I witnessed 9/11 first hand I would of agreed with you. I am not saying 9/11 makes it okay to run torture/detention camps, what I am saying is I don’t have any sympathy for real actual terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/191 "2015-03-06T02:26:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And you keep avoiding the implications of the more important question— “What if you were the one being threatened with torture?” You know you are innocent. You know you have no information. You know you are in a circumstance that looks bad from the outside, but you can’t get anyone to believe you. > > We know for a fact that there were dozens of people sent to Guantanamo with no evidence of connections to the Taliban or to Al Qaeda or to anything else. They were turned in to curry favor with the occupiers, to settle personal scores, and for other selfish reasons. > > Completely innocent people were held for years and tortured for no reason whatsoever. Their lives were ruined for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not being able to persuade anyone to believe them. > > We know for a fact that happened. We also know that the ticking time bomb scenario has happened only in fiction. do you think there are any completely innocent people training in an actual terrorist training camp? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/192 "2015-03-06T02:57:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > do you think there are any completely innocent people training in an actual terrorist training camp? Have you met every single one and found out exactly what they have done and what they know? Do you know that there definitely aren’t _any_ “terrorist training camps” out there that are just a bunch of doofuses running around in the mountains acting stupid? Ones that have no one who has the ability or the knowledge or the resources to carry out any kind “terrorist operation” beyond the next clearing in the woods and have no connections to anyone who could? And do you know for sure that there aren’t “terrorist training camps” much closer to home with the same kinds of doofuses, but much, much more likely to cause you direct harm because they’re next door? They might not call themselves “terrorist training camps,” but they might call themselves the “militia” or the “freemen of the soil” or “patriots” or something like that. Are you willing to torture them to find out what they know? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/193 "2015-03-06T02:58:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Before I witnessed 9/11 first hand I would of agreed with you. I am not saying 9/11 makes it okay to run torture/detention camps, what I am saying is I don’t have any sympathy for real actual terrorists. And you know for sure who these “real actual terrorists” are when you see one … uh … read about one, on the say-so of someone who hasn’t had to prove anything to anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/194 "2015-03-06T03:02:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Have you met every single one and found out exactly what they have done and what they know? > > Do you know that there definitely aren’t _any_ “terrorist training camps” out there that are just a bunch of doofuses running around in the mountains acting stupid? Ones that have no one who has the ability or the knowledge or the resources to carry out any kind “terrorist operation” beyond the next clearing in the woods and have no connections to anyone who could? > > And do you know for sure that there aren’t “terrorist training camps” much closer to home with the same kinds of doofuses, but much, much more likely to cause you direct harm because they’re next door? > > They might not call themselves “terrorist training camps,” but they might call themselves the “militia” or the “freemen of the soil” or “patriots” or something like that. Are you willing to torture them to find out what they know? Well I feel a little stupid and a little embarrassed. You’re completely right. How would you determine the difference between someone who hates America, a global imperialist power, and someone who wants to blow up innocent people? I don’t think you can trust either the government or the media of the USA to give an honest assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/195 "2015-03-06T04:38:29Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, I have to say again, that I have to agree with you. I think my hatred of terrorists blinded me to any other point of view than violence and revenge but looking at it objectively I can see and admit that I am wrong. I am heartened that you have come to this realization. I only hope that people who make the decisions on whether or not to torture, or those who defend it, are as willing as you are to admit they are wrong. Hopefully then we can put another reprehensible portion of American history behind us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903.md?page=9)