# Can someone concisely formulate what makes torture so immoral? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903 "2014-12-22T11:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/101 "2015-03-05T20:52:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > you dont think dropping a bomb or shooting someone from s sniper rifle requires malice??? It can be done in a relatively distant, insulated, impersonal way. You’re seeing a target through cross hairs, dehumanizing them. Torture, on the hand, requires much more malice. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/102 "2015-03-05T20:52:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I suspect that any claim I make you will just just label as hypothetical or irrational and disregard. But the real question is, do you honestly think there has not been a single case of terrorism prevented by using torture? I guess if you can - honestly - answer no to that question then there is no grounds for discussion. Because, if no such event ever occurred then of course torture is wrong, in every situation. But if such an event has occurred, then it means the situation must be determined on a case by case basis. And, also, to answer your question, I would imagine that if the person does not have the information you need, torture would be very ineffective. If, however, they did have the information you need, I imagine it would be effective in most cases. Robert163 Read back a few posts to Post 81 and I provided a specific example of torture working for Czarcasm. When Czarcasm later returned suggesting a single cite was underwhelming I made a general reference to two other, wider examples of torture working, without providing exact cites, in post 84. If you wish to make claims I will read them and will try to keep an open mind. If you have personal knowledge of torture being used then you would be a useful source of facts regarding its efficacy, accuracy and general effectiveness. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/103 "2015-03-05T21:01:04Z")
[Here](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germans-debating-police-torture.html) is a case where the mere _threat_ of torture elicited a full confession when sustained interrogation had failed, if it helps. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/104 "2015-03-05T21:07:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It can be done in a relatively distant, insulated, impersonal way. You’re seeing a target through cross hairs, dehumanizing them. > Torture, on the hand, requires much more malice. look, i am sorry to disagree with you, i think the term you are looking for is sadistic. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/105 "2015-03-05T21:12:39Z")
> [@TCMF-2L](#): > > Robert163 > > Read back a few posts to Post 81 and I provided a specific example of torture working for Czarcasm. > > When Czarcasm later returned suggesting a single cite was underwhelming I made a general reference to two other, wider examples of torture working, without providing exact cites, in post 84. > > If you wish to make claims I will read them and will try to keep an open mind. If you have personal knowledge of torture being used then you would be a useful source of facts regarding its efficacy, accuracy and general effectiveness. > > TCMF-2L I am not making a case for or against the use of torture though my very strong opinion is that in rare cases where an individual does have information, you can get the information from torture. But that is not the point. The point is it is easy to be morally correct as long as it is hypothetical. Turn it into a real situation where the lives of someone you love are in danger and for most people, their ethics about the morality of torture will be quickly abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/106 "2015-03-05T21:20:18Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I am not making a case for or against the use of torture though my very strong opinion is that in rare cases where an individual does have information, you can get the information from torture. But that is not the point. The point is it is easy to be morally correct as long as it is hypothetical. Turn it into a real situation where the lives of someone you love are in danger and for most people, their ethics about the morality of torture will be quickly abandoned. Not at all. It’s the fantasy that the torture will definitely work that makes the torture seem “morally correct”. In the real world, however, there are no guarantees it will work. It’s only when you create a hypothetical where the torture WILL work and it’s a person’s own family that WILL be saved that you reach some kind of admission that it is OK to torture. These “ticking time bomb” “save your family” scenarios are by and large just fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/107 "2015-03-05T21:25:17Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Not at all. It’s the fantasy that the torture will definitely work that makes the torture seem “morally correct”. In the real world, however, there are no guarantees it will work. It’s only when you create a hypothetical where the torture WILL work and it’s a person’s own family that WILL be saved that you reach some kind of admission that it is OK to torture. > > These “ticking time bomb” “save your family” scenarios are by and large just fantasies. Agreed. Do you agree that in every act of terrorism (or most) there is a long chain of events and planning going back months or even possibly years to plan said event? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/108 "2015-03-05T21:34:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Agreed. Do you agree that in every act of terrorism (or most) there is a long chain of events and planning going back months or even possibly years to plan said event? Not all, but some certainly. Why? Are we going into hypothetical-land? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/109 "2015-03-05T21:36:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Not all, but some certainly. > > Why? Are we going into hypothetical-land? Well, since actual terrorist events actually happen, then, no, we are not going to “hypothetical land” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/110 "2015-03-05T21:38:18Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, since actual terrorist events actually happen, then, no, we are not going to “hypothetical land” Then why ask? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/111 "2015-03-05T21:40:46Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Then why ask? you are the one who made the distinction of ticking time bomb scenarios, which i agree are going to be much much less frequent than catching terrorists in the planning stages ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/112 "2015-03-05T21:47:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > you are the one who made the distinction of ticking time bomb scenarios, which i agree are going to be much much less frequent than catching terrorists in the planning stages You lost me. I have no clue what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/113 "2015-03-05T21:48:52Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You lost me. I have no clue what your point is. my point is if you catch someone planning a terrorist attack and only have half the details then i approve torturing them to get the other half ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/114 "2015-03-05T21:56:46Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > my point is if you catch someone planning a terrorist attack and only have half the details then i approve torturing them to get the other half I do not believe the fact torture has occasionally worked in the past is justification for its use anytime. I also don’t believe that attempting to justify it with a “the real world is hard” is persuasive at all. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/115 "2015-03-05T21:59:10Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I do not believe the fact torture has occasionally worked in the past is justification for its use anytime. I also don’t believe that attempting to justify it with a “the real world is hard” is persuasive at all. And I bet that if it were your husband/daughter/best friend who were in danger you would quickly change your mind. Thats the point I’m actually arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/116 "2015-03-05T22:02:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And I bet that if it were your husband/daughter/best friend who were in danger you would quickly change your mind. Thats the point I’m actually arguing. That’s why we don’t give the power to make decisions to the people who are directly affected. That’s why law enforcement officials, prosecutors, judges, and juries are supposed to recuse themselves from situations in which they have a direct interest. Because making decisions based on your personal interest is the opposite of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/117 "2015-03-05T22:03:19Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > [Here](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germans-debating-police-torture.html) is a case where the mere _threat_ of torture elicited a full confession when sustained interrogation had failed, if it helps. That’s what you’re classifying as a success? The police already knew he did it, because they caught him collecting the ransom for the kidnapping. The reason they threatened him with torture was to rescue the hostage, and they failed to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/118 "2015-03-05T22:06:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s why we don’t give the power to make decisions to the people who are directly affected. That’s why law enforcement officials, prosecutors, judges, and juries are supposed to recuse themselves from situations in which they have a direct interest. > > Because making decisions based on your personal interest is the opposite of justice. Ok, yes, sure, of course, but what if it were YOUR best friend, or husband, or daughter and there were no rules to stop you, what would you do? Cause pain to the person who wanted to kill your loved one, or, do nothing and let your loved one be killed? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/119 "2015-03-05T22:11:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And I bet that if it were your husband/daughter/best friend who were in danger you would quickly change your mind. Nope. Because torture doesn’t always work, and, here in the real world, is no better than other interrogation methods that have better success rates. Because I’d want to save my family, not torture someone. And, as Ascenray points out, that’s kinda why we don’t allow people with a stake it in to make those decisions. This idea that somehow people would resort to torture if it were their family is just another hypothetical to try and make people who would resort to torture feel better about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/120 "2015-03-05T22:32:34Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, yes, sure, of course, but what if it were YOUR best friend, or husband, or daughter and there were no rules to stop you, what would you do? Cause pain to the person who wanted to kill your loved one, or, do nothing and let your loved one be killed? I’d ask for a script rewrite, because that one has been done too many times already. It’s right up there with time bombs with countdown clocks wired on the outside. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903.md?page=7)