# Can someone concisely formulate what makes torture so immoral? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903 "2014-12-22T11:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/141 "2015-03-05T23:10:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, lets be clear, if it took violence in order to return your kidnapped daughter to you, would you approve of it? I just want to confirm that you admit that you would. You notice that you’ve had to posit, once again, that the violence is necessary to accomplish the goal. That’s the fantasy world you have to live in to advocate torture, where torture will work and accomplish a goal. Here, in the real world, there is no evidence to support that idea. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/142 "2015-03-05T23:15:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I didn’t say it didn’t work. I said it’s not more effective than other methods of interrogation. Police officers all over this country get confessions every day without resorting to torture. There is also [this article](http://pfiffner.gmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Pfiffner_Torture_Efficacy_Ch-6_ET.pdf) (warning .pdf) which includes: > > “The consensus of these military personnel who interrogated hundred of detainees is that traditional means of interrogation are most effective.” > > and > > “The Intelligence Science Board, after an extensive review of the scientific literature on interrogation, concluded in a 374 page report that there is little evidence that coercive interrogation techniques are effective and also that torture might be counterproductive to obtaining truthful statements.” Well, if that is accurate, and I’m not saying it’s not, I’m just saying that in the middle of a debate it is hard to turn around, admit you are wrong, and reverse your position. But, if the consensus among people who have carried out EIT is that EIT doesn’t work, then I would not have a very good argument against their findings. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/143 "2015-03-05T23:16:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You notice that you’ve had to posit, once again, that the violence is necessary to accomplish the goal. That’s the fantasy world you have to live in to advocate torture, where torture will work and accomplish a goal. Here, in the real world, there is no evidence to support that idea. I will readily admit there are very few occasions where an imminent threat would exist. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/144 "2015-03-05T23:21:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And if the name he gave up at first was the actual name of an actual terrorist? Again,how does the torturer know it is ? Think for one bleeding second here. Go through the process in your head. > [@](#): > > so, in other words, if it was your daughter who was kidnapped, you’d be an immoral asshole, but if it was some strangers daughter in an abstract, unrelated to you case, you’d do what was “moral”. I expect that to be the case, though I’ve yet to be assayed in that particular crucible. I _hope_ I’d be able to actually rise above my baser urges, but I’m not that self-deluded that I think it likely. Lord knows I’ve been revealed as a monkey under pressure, time and again. So, yeah, I’d likely want to break bad, in that particular instant. Which, to reiterate, is not hypocritical in the least. And I really appreciate the fact that a number of societal forces and institutions would prevent me from \*\*actually \*\*breaking bad. ETA : that said, my opposition to torture is about more than morality or personal distaste. I believe it not only doesn’t work as an investigative tool, but also gives “the other side” one hell of a recruitment and loyalty tool. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/145 "2015-03-05T23:25:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes but what would YOU do if they actually caught one of the criminals who had you daughter and there we no rules applied. You’d do whatever was necessary to get her back, right? > > Or are you simply saying there is NEVER a situation where a criminal has information that we can wrest from them by employing violence? Me personally, I am no fighter and have no stomach for torture. If my daughter was kidnapped I would rely on the police (or other authorities) to save her for me. That may make me seem (or even be) weak, worthless or pathetic in your eyes but at least I am honest. I don’t delude myself and won’t try to lie to you. However I note your scenario is ridiculous. Asking me what I would do if no rules applied? That’s a massive flaw in your reasoning. Rules DO apply and for any actions I took there WOULD be lasting consequences. Then there’s the whole unreliability of torture as mentioned repeatedly upthread. Torturing a wide range of prisoners over a long time and gathering and collating the information and then checking the information out will likely uncover at least some useful data. Over time. But grabbing an individual, who may or may not be guilty and even if guilty may or may not have information pertinent to saving my daughter and torturing them for a specific fact to save her life? It doesn’t seem very plausible to me. To repeat I would let the authorities try. My belief is they would do a better job than me. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/146 "2015-03-05T23:26:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Again,how does the torturer know it is ? Think for one bleeding second here. Go through the process in your head. > > I expect that to be the case, though I’ve yet to be assayed in that particular crucible. I _hope_ I’d be able to actually rise above my baser urges, but I’m not that self-deluded that I think it likely. Lord knows I’ve been revealed as a monkey under pressure, time and again. So, yeah, I’d likely want to break bad, in that particular instant. > Which, to reiterate, is not hypocritical in the least. And I really appreciate the fact that a number of societal forces and institutions would prevent me from \*\*actually \*\*breaking bad. > > ETA : that said, my opposition to torture is about more than morality or personal distaste. I believe it not only doesn’t work as an investigative tool, but also gives “the other side” one hell of a recruitment and loyalty tool. If someone broke into your home and you had a gun and they tried to harm you, would you defend yourself? I assume you would. Why then would you feel bad/immoral to use violence to protect your loved ones in other situations. And, I am not being hyperbolic, I really mean it, if a couple of broken ribs are all it takes to keep someone safe, safe from someone who intends them harm, what is the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/147 "2015-03-05T23:28:56Z")
> [@TCMF-2L](#): > > Me personally, I am no fighter and have no stomach for torture. If my daughter was kidnapped I would rely on the police (or other authorities) to save her for me. That may make me seem (or even be) weak, worthless or pathetic in your eyes but at least I am honest. I don’t delude myself and won’t try to lie to you. > > However I note your scenario is ridiculous. Asking me what I would do if no rules applied? That’s a massive flaw in your reasoning. Rules DO apply and for any actions I took there WOULD be lasting consequences. > > Then there’s the whole unreliability of torture as mentioned repeatedly upthread. > > Torturing a wide range of prisoners over a long time and gathering and collating the information and then checking the information out will likely uncover at least some useful data. Over time. > > But grabbing an individual, who may or may not be guilty and even if guilty may or may not have information pertinent to saving my daughter and torturing them for a specific fact to save her life? It doesn’t seem very plausible to me. > > To repeat I would let the authorities try. My belief is they would do a better job than me. > > TCMF-2L I dont know if I would be good at doing violence to others either. I am simply pointing out that before you talk about morality in an abstract sense you have to be honest and say how would you REALLY react in a certain situation before you judge someone else for using violence to achieve a necessary end. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/148 "2015-03-05T23:30:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > ETA : that said, my opposition to torture is about more than morality or personal distaste. I believe it not only doesn’t work as an investigative tool, but also gives “the other side” one hell of a recruitment and loyalty tool. that factor is kind of hard to ignore, i agree with you in this sense ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/149 "2015-03-05T23:31:34Z")
First, I’m really torn on the subject of the morality of self-defense itself, so you’ve got kind of a problem on your hands there ;). Second, there’s a world of difference between taking an action that would end a demonstrable and immediate threat (even more so when it’s a snap decision) and a conscious decision to go through the lengthy, deliberate process of torturing somebody. And I expect if I ever actually killed somebody in self-defence or defence of my loved ones, I’d likely spend the rest of my life guilting about it and wondering whether it really was the only thing I could have done anyway. Lastly, “a couple of broken ribs” are \*\*never \*\*all it takes, if you put torture on the table. Once more, torture doesn’t stop when the torturee gives the correct information. Torture stops when the torturer is through. Depending on the individual evilness of the torturer, that could take a while. Would \*\*you \*\*really want to be that guy ? Or are you just glad somebody out there is doing that work for you, ostensibly to keep you safe ? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/150 "2015-03-05T23:36:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Lastly, “a couple of broken ribs” are \*\*never \*\*all it takes, if you put torture on the table. Once more, torture doesn’t stop when the torturee gives the correct information. Torture stops when the torturer is through. Depending on the individual evilness of the torturer, that could take a while. Good point. But if my daughters life depended on it, I can’t say I wouldn’t approve it > [@](#): > > Would \*\*you \*\*really want to be that guy ? Or are you just glad somebody out there is doing that work for you, ostensibly to keep you safe ? Well hopefully these cases are rare enough that it wouldnt come to that ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/151 "2015-03-05T23:36:40Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If someone broke into your home and you had a gun and they tried to harm you, would you defend yourself? I assume you would. Why then would you feel bad/immoral to use violence to protect your loved ones in other situations. And, I am not being hyperbolic, I really mean it, if a couple of broken ribs are all it takes to keep someone safe, safe from someone who intends them harm, what is the problem? Why do you continue to posit this as if it is in any way, shape, or form relevant to the real world discussion of torture. Torture isn’t self defense, torture isn’t better than other techniques, and torture is immoral. You constant need to devolve into loaded hypotheticals should be telling you something about your position. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/152 "2015-03-05T23:36:42Z")
I have never been in a situation remotely like being offered a “no strings attached” opportunity to torture a real (or alleged) bad guy. Therefore I can only offer an abstract view on the morality involved. I believe I would turn down the opportunity for any “hands on” torture. I honestly believe I would turn down any such opportunity although I do find it difficult to imagine a situation where such an offer was made. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/153 "2015-03-05T23:40:10Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Why do you continue to posit this as if it is in any way, shape, or form relevant to the real world discussion of torture. Torture isn’t self defense, torture isn’t better than other techniques, and torture is immoral. You constant need to devolve into loaded hypotheticals should be telling you something about your position. Right, because criminals never kidnap people. Or stalk people. Or threaten them. And terrorists never blow anything up, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/154 "2015-03-05T23:43:01Z")
> [@TCMF-2L](#): > > I have never been in a situation remotely like being offered a “no strings attached” opportunity to torture a real (or alleged) bad guy. Therefore I can only offer an abstract view on the morality involved. > > I believe I would turn down the opportunity for any “hands on” torture. > > I honestly believe I would turn down any such opportunity although I do find it difficult to imagine a situation where such an offer was made. > > TCMF-2L They probably are quite rare. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/155 "2015-03-06T00:03:55Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > That’s all true, of course, but it doesn’t invalidate the example. The police had reason to believe that the hostage was still alive and they resorted to the extreme measures they did only because standard interrogation techniques had failed. In this specific instance, the threat of torture proved to be more useful in gaining the suspect’s compliance than merely questioning him. It helped them find a corpse. That’s not very useful, when the stated purpose of the torture was to find a living, breathing child. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/156 "2015-03-06T00:05:59Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Right, because criminals never kidnap people. Or stalk people. Or threaten them. And terrorists never blow anything up, ever. You don’t seem to grasp that you’re trying to argue about two different types of crime in this thread and pretending that they’re the same crime. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/157 "2015-03-06T00:09:11Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You don’t seem to grasp that you’re trying to argue about two different types of crime in this thread and pretending that they’re the same crime. exactly, terrorism is worse, so i’m not really sure what point you’re making ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/158 "2015-03-06T00:55:47Z")
You’re equating shooting an armed person who’s broken into your home while they’re in your home with attempting to extract information from someone by the use of torture. You don’t see the point that those are absolutely not the same thing at all? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/159 "2015-03-06T01:04:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You’re equating shooting an armed person who’s broken into your home while they’re in your home with attempting to extract information from someone by the use of torture. You don’t see the point that those are absolutely not the same thing at all? Yeah, well if Adolph Hitler was a second away from killing 6 million Jews and you had a gun and you would kill him, then torture is moral! So there. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/160 "2015-03-06T01:04:22Z")
**Robert163** , you are really missing the key factor here, even though it has come up before, I’ll give it a go. So, in order to save your daughter, you (or some authority) start torturing a suspect. At the first rib crack, he gives you an address. Cops investigate, but your daughter is not there. At this point you have no way of knowing if the suspect A)Lied B)doesn’t know, or C)meant to tell the truth but in his agitated state transposed the numbers. So what’s next? Do you crack another rib and try again? And after the sufficient number of ribs are cracked, figure he must not be the guy and bring in the next suspect and start over again? This inefficiency alone is should be good enough reason not to torture the suspect. And even if your guy gives up the right info on the first try, and your daughter is saved (the 100 sided dice coming up 1), what about the next suspect who isn’t so ‘lucky’. And the next, and the next…that’s a lot of innocent ribs broken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903.md?page=9)