# Can someone concisely formulate what makes torture so immoral? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2014, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903 "2014-12-22T11:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/161 "2015-03-06T01:09:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You’re equating shooting an armed person who’s broken into your home while they’re in your home with attempting to extract information from someone by the use of torture. You don’t see the point that those are absolutely not the same thing at all? Yes of course they are different but the point is kidnapping someone and roistering their family is probably as bad or worse than simply breaking in their house. > [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > **Robert163** , you are really missing the key factor here, even though it has come up before, I’ll give it a go. > > So, in order to save your daughter, you (or some authority) start torturing a suspect. At the first rib crack, he gives you an address. Cops investigate, but your daughter is not there. At this point you have no way of knowing if the suspect A)Lied B)doesn’t know, or C)meant to tell the truth but in his agitated state transposed the numbers. So what’s next? Do you crack another rib and try again? And after the sufficient number of ribs are cracked, figure he must not be the guy and bring in the next suspect and start over again? > > This inefficiency alone is should be good enough reason not to torture the suspect. > > And even if your guy gives up the right info on the first try, and your daughter is saved (the 100 sided dice coming up 1), what about the next suspect who isn’t so ‘lucky’. And the next, and the next…that’s a lot of innocent ribs broken. Yeah, good points all around but no one wants to concede my point: If it were you and you could break the rules, and use violence or torture to save a loved one or keep them safe, I think most people, if they are at all honest, would have to admit they would break the rules (assuming they were somehow able to). SO how can you say someone else is wrong for doing the EXACT same thing you would do??? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/162 "2015-03-06T01:13:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If it were you and you could break the rules, and use violence or torture to save a loved one or keep them safe, I think most people, if they are at all honest, would have to admit they would break the rules (assuming they were somehow able to). SO how can you say someone else is wrong for doing the EXACT same thing you would do??? How many times does this have to be explained to you? This only happens in the fevered imagination of people trying to justify torture. Here, in the real world, you don’t get the option of saying “if you torture, you will save a loved one”. In the real world the BEST you can get is “if you torture, you might get the information you want, but torture is ineffective and other forms of interrogation may have better results”. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/163 "2015-03-06T01:17:59Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > How many times does this have to be explained to you? This only happens in the fevered imagination of people trying to justify torture. Here, in the real world, you don’t get the option of saying “if you torture, you will save a loved one”. In the real world the BEST you can get is “if you torture, you might get the information you want, but torture is ineffective and other forms of interrogation may have better results”. so you’re denying that people get kidnapped?, you’re denying that terrorists carry out bombings?, you’re denying that both activities take coordination and planning?, you’re denying that conspirators occasionally get caught? or are you simply denying that if caught, there will be any reliable information extracted? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/164 "2015-03-06T01:22:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so you’re denying that people get kidnapped?, you’re denying that terrorists carry out bombings?, you’re denying that both activities take coordination and planning?, you’re denying that conspirators occasionally get caught? or are you simply denying that if caught, there will be any reliable information extracted? You are seriously trying my patience. I’ve explained this to you multiple times in multiple ways. I am not denying any of that. I am denying that, here in the real world, that you can say that you will get reliable information from torture. The best, the VERY BEST, you can hope for is the possibility that you MIGHT get reliable information, while other methods may work better. How are you still not grasping this? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/165 "2015-03-06T01:27:09Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You are seriously trying my patience. I’ve explained this to you multiple times in multiple ways. I am not denying any of that. I am denying that, here in the real world, that you can say that you will get reliable information from torture. The best, the VERY BEST, you can hope for is the possibility that you MIGHT get reliable information, while other methods may work better. How are you still not grasping this? Because you are putting the safety, comfort and civil rights of criminals and terrorists ABOVE the safety and comfort of innocent people. So if the methods are not “efficient” as they could be I really don’t care. And if they suffer I really don’t care. I know that sounds horrible but why, WHY is the comfort, safety and civil rights of criminals and terrorists more important to you than the comfort and safety of innocent people? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/166 "2015-03-06T01:30:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I suspect that any claim I make you will just just label as hypothetical or irrational and disregard. But the real question is, do you honestly think there has not been a single case of terrorism prevented by using torture? I guess if you can - honestly - answer no to that question then there is no grounds for discussion. Because, if no such event ever occurred then of course torture is wrong, in every situation. But if such an event has occurred, then it means the situation must be determined on a case by case basis. And, also, to answer your question, I would imagine that if the person does not have the information you need, torture would be very ineffective. If, however, they did have the information you need, I imagine it would be effective in most cases. Hypothetically, some terrorist plot in the last fifteen years was thwarted due to information obtained through torture. (I say hypothetically because, thus far, every claim for such an event has turned out to be a fabrication or the torture was simply used to (purportedly) confirm information obtained through other means.) On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that “intelligence” obtained through torture resulted in bad decisions–including the rationale to go to war–that harmed far more people than any hypothetical terrorist attack. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/167 "2015-03-06T01:36:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Because you are putting the safety, comfort and civil rights of criminals and terrorists ABOVE the safety and comfort of innocent people. Bullshit. Plain, simple, unadulterated bullshit. That’s the kind of response I would expect from a Glenn Beck or a torture fetishist. You keep trying, vainly to anyone with operating brain cells, to equate the possibility of receiving valuable information with the surety of gaining valuable information. That’s simply not how reality works. If you could guarantee that torture will work, then yes, it is possible that the ends (saving lives) would justify the means (torture). But here’s the thing. The thing I’ve explained to you over and over and over and over and over to no avail. You can’t make that guarantee. Nobody can. Because it simply has no basis in reality. Which is why you have to resort to preposterous hypotheticals where the torture is necessary and WILL work. It’s simply not reality. What is reality is that it is annoying having to explain this to you multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/168 "2015-03-06T01:40:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Hypothetically, some terrorist plot in the last fifteen years was thwarted due to information obtained through torture. (I say hypothetically because, thus far, every claim for such an event has turned out to be a fabrication or the torture was simply used to (purportedly) confirm information obtained through other means.) On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that “intelligence” obtained through torture resulted in bad decisions–including the rationale to go to war–that harmed far more people than any hypothetical terrorist attack. I think this is a completely reasonable assessment. But I have two situations I am skeptical of. If you can disprove them or dismantle them I would have to admit I have no argument left. Situation 1- you capture someone in a terrorist training camp. They may not know a lot but they will have some valuable information. Situation 2- The CIA/NSA monitors a small group of individuals and determines they are planning an attack but critical details do not show up in emails/phone calls ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/169 "2015-03-06T01:41:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so you’re denying that people get kidnapped?, you’re denying that terrorists carry out bombings?, you’re denying that both activities take coordination and planning?, you’re denying that conspirators occasionally get caught? or are you simply denying that if caught, there will be any reliable information extracted? As **Hamlet** said “Your constant need to devolve into loaded hypotheticals should be telling you something about your position.” In real life what usually happens is that governments use torture to justify the very reprehensible paths they want to take. [http://www7.nationalacademies.org/humanrights/Cases/CHR\_068436.htm](http://www7.nationalacademies.org/humanrights/Cases/CHR_068436.htm) > [@](#): > > Five Bulgarian nurses (Valya Georgieva Chervenyashka, Snezhana Ivanova Dimitrova, Nasya Stojcheva Nenova, Valentina Manolova Siropulo, and Kristiana Malinova Valcheva), as well as one Palestinian medical doctor (Ashraf Ahmad Jum’a al-Hajuj), were arrested in early 1999 and subsequently charged with deliberately infecting several hundred children with the HIV virus and causing the deaths of 40 while working in al-Fateh Children’s Hospital in Benghazi, Libya. On May 6, 2004, they were sentenced to death by firing squad by the Benghazi Criminal Court. > [@](#): > > In addition, the so-called “confessions” that were obtained from some of the defendants and used to convict all six of them were reportedly obtained under severe torture. Although the victims testified in court that they had been tortured and retracted their confessions on the grounds that they had been forcibly coerced, their confessions were nevertheless entered into evidence at the trial by the prosecution. We understand that eight members of the security forces and two others (a doctor and a translator) in their employ were charged in connection with the torture. It was thanks to international pressure that the medical staff was eventually released. And then we should not forget what G.W.Bush got thanks to torture: > **['Both Sides' Are Wrong: Torture Did Work -- to Produce Lies for War (See...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-both-sides-are-ignor_b_6315678)** > > The truth is that torture did work, but not the way its defenders claim. It worked to produce justifications for policies the establishment wanted, like the Iraq war. > [@](#): > > Many have reported that CIA interrogators waterboarded two alleged top al Qaeda detainees repeatedly – Abu Zubaydah at least 83 times and Khalid Sheik Muhammed 183 times – but few give the exact timing and context: They were so tortured in August 2002 and March 2003 respectively – the beginning and end of the Bush administration’s push for the invasion of Iraq. > > This was somewhat acknowledged in the other Senate report on torture, released by the Armed Services Committee in 2008. It quoted Maj. Paul Burney, who worked as a psychiatrist at Guantanamo Bay prison: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al-Qaeda and Iraq and we were not successful. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link … there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.” The GTMO Interrogation Control Element Chief, David Becker told the Armed Services Committee he was urged to use more aggressive techniques, being told at one point “the office of Deputy Secretary of Defense [Paul] Wolfowitz had called to express concerns about the insufficient intelligence production at GTMO.” > > McClatchy reported Sen. Carl Levin, the chair of the Armed Services Committee, said at that time: “I think it’s obvious that the administration was scrambling then to try to find a connection, a link (between al Qaida and Iraq) … They made out links where they didn’t exist.” But now, Levin seems more muted, saying, in response to the release of the recent report, that false information leads to “time-consuming wild goose chases” – which is quite an understatement given the human horrors that have resulted from the invasion of Iraq. > > So, contrary to the claim that torture helped save lives, torture helped build the case of lies for war that took thousands of U.S. lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, helping to plunge the region into astounding violence, bringing al-Qaeda into Iraq, leading to the rise of ISIS and further bloody wars. As Arianna Huffington noted: “A perfect circle: Torture helps start Iraq War, which in turn gives us more people to torture. #happyhumanrightsday” ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/170 "2015-03-06T01:44:44Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Bullshit. > > Plain, simple, unadulterated bullshit. That’s the kind of response I would expect from a Glenn Beck or a torture fetishist. > > You keep trying, vainly to anyone with operating brain cells, to equate the possibility of receiving valuable information with the surety of gaining valuable information. > > That’s simply not how reality works. If you could guarantee that torture will work, then yes, it is possible that the ends (saving lives) would justify the means (torture). > > But here’s the thing. The thing I’ve explained to you over and over and over and over and over to no avail. > > You can’t make that guarantee. Nobody can. Because it simply has no basis in reality. Which is why you have to resort to preposterous hypotheticals where the torture is necessary and WILL work. It’s simply not reality. What is reality is that it is annoying having to explain this to you multiple times. right. defend the safety and comfort of criminals and terrorists. because hurting them might not work. i’ve lost my patience too. i suspect there is nothing left to say. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/171 "2015-03-06T01:46:25Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yeah, good points all around but no one wants to concede my point: What is the purpose of conceding a point that is wrong? > [@flashlights and space ships](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/flashlights-and-space-ships/3085/1): > > If it were you and you could break the rules, and use violence or torture to save a loved one or keep them safe, I think most people, if they are at all honest, would have to admit they would break the rules (assuming they were somehow able to). SO how can you say someone else is wrong for doing the EXACT same thing you would do??? This is silly. If my wife or daughter were sexually assaulted and beaten, I might very well lose control of my anger and inflict great harm or death on the person I believed was responsible. However, I would still be held liable for he harm I inflicted and there is always the chance that I had the wrong guy and inflicted harm on an innocent person. We do not excuse criminal behavior just because a person is angry and we cannot justify torture on the off chance that someone, somewhere used it (with a good probability of error) because they happened to hold an irrational belief that they were defending their family. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/172 "2015-03-06T01:49:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As **Hamlet** said “Your constant need to devolve into loaded hypotheticals should be telling you something about your position.” > > In real life what usually happens is that governments use torture to justify the very reprehensible paths they want to take. > > [http://www7.nationalacademies.org/humanrights/Cases/CHR\_068436.htm](http://www7.nationalacademies.org/humanrights/Cases/CHR_068436.htm) > > It was thanks to international pressure that the medical staff was eventually released. > > And then we should not forget what G.W.Bush got thanks to torture: > > ['Both Sides' Are Wrong: Torture Did Work -- to Produce Lies for War (See Footnote 857 of Report) | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-husseini/what-both-sides-are-ignor_b_6315678.html) I’m NOT advocating torture on a regular basis. I am saying there are rare cases where it would be acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/173 "2015-03-06T01:50:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > right. defend the safety and comfort of criminals and terrorists. because hurting them might not work. i’ve lost my patience too. i suspect there is nothing left to say. Wrong. We refrain from becoming terrorists and criminals by using unreliable methods to find information by inflicting suffering on people who might be innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/174 "2015-03-06T01:50:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > What is the purpose of conceding a point that is wrong? > This is silly. If my wife or daughter were sexually assaulted and beaten, I might very well lose control of my anger and inflict great harm or death on the person I believed was responsible. > However, I would still be held liable for he harm I inflicted and there is always the chance that I had the wrong guy and inflicted harm on an innocent person. > We do not excuse criminal behavior just because a person is angry and we cannot justify torture on the off chance that someone, somewhere used it (with a good probability of error) because they happened to hold an irrational belief that they were defending their family. ok ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/175 "2015-03-06T01:55:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Wrong. We refrain from becoming terrorists and criminals by using unreliable methods to find information by inflicting suffering on people who might be innocent. so you are 100% certain torture is NEVER acceptable under any circumstances??? are you so committed to a philosophical or moral principle that you can’t see ANY situation where it would be appropriate? As evil, mean, and ruthless as I assume you think I am (which I am not) I think you are not being honest if you maintain that it is NEVER appropriate under any circumstances. But why bother, I’m sure you think I’m evil and I doubt you give any consideration to the fact that I might actually have a point to make. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/176 "2015-03-06T02:00:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Right. But supposed we did ask you what to do. What would you say? If I said “I would say don’t torture,” then you could say “You’re just saying that” or “You don’t really know.” If I said “I would say torture,” then you could say “See! You’re a hypocrite!” The real answer is that I don’t know what I would say. I would hope I would say the first. But if I said the second, it wouldn’t be hypocrisy. It would be _a conflict of interest_, something we recognize as a problem in any kind of decision-making situation, which is why we don’t allow people in that situation to make the decision. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/177 "2015-03-06T02:00:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m NOT advocating torture on a regular basis. I am saying there are rare cases where it would be acceptable. The ONLY rare cases are ones you have create in your fevered imagination that have absolutely no basis in reality. As long as you keep your torture there, we’ll be fine. It’s when you try to expand that dream world to here in the real world, where there are absolutely no guarantees that torture works (and evidence it doesn’t work any better than other methods), that we’ll have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/178 "2015-03-06T02:01:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I think this is a completely reasonable assessment. But I have two situations I am skeptical of. If you can disprove them or dismantle them I would have to admit I have no argument left. > > Situation 1- you capture someone in a terrorist training camp. They may not know a lot but they will have some valuable information. It is really a stretch to assume that the enemy does not also take into account that possibility when one of their members disappears. It makes their information next to useless. > [@Robert163](#): > > Situation 2- The CIA/NSA monitors a small group of individuals and determines they are planning an attack but critical details do not show up in emails/phone calls Same issues as the other one, it is really naive to think that the enemy at those levels would not be ready to make efforts so the information that the ones being tortured could give to the enemy could be used against the enemy too. As an example IIRC there was once a rebel radio in El Salvador where the military obtained information of the location of the radio broadcast unit of the guerrillas, some of the info was obtained by torture, the proud military thugs took the radio equipment into their helicopter to display their price in the capital city. The army commander that had organized the Mozote massacre was blown to bits in the air with the device that was inside the false radio broadcast unit. And then I do have my suspicions that many Al-Qaeda terrorists that were captured did want to see the USA to get involved in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/179 "2015-03-06T02:04:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If I said “I would say don’t torture,” then you could say “You’re just saying that” or “You don’t really know.” > > If I said “I would say torture,” then you could say “See! You’re a hypocrite!” > > The real answer is that I don’t know what I would say. I would hope I would say the first. But if I said the second, it wouldn’t be hypocrisy. It would be _a conflict of interest_, something we recognize as a problem in any kind of decision-making situation, which is why we don’t allow people in that situation to make the decision. well its hypocrisy. calling it a “conflict of interest” is just trying to make it sound better > [@Hamlet](#): > > The ONLY rare cases are ones you have create in your fevered imagination that have absolutely no basis in reality. first you admit that such crimes do happen and then you claim they happen only in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903/180 "2015-03-06T02:07:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > first you admit that such crimes do happen and then you claim they happen only in my mind. The crimes do happen. That torture will definitely stop those crimese is only in your head. I’ve only explained this to you 8 times now, so I’m not confident it will sink in. And for Pete’s sake, learn to use the Shift button. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-concisely-formulate-what-makes-torture-so-immoral/707903.md?page=10)