# Can someone convert me, please? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2000, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266 "2000-09-15T03:04:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/21 "2000-09-15T20:06:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > (To paraphrase Voltaire, “If God did not exist, man would have to make him up.” Since no one that I have ever met has been able to show me or persuade me of the existence **or** nonexistence of God, I can only believe that everyone is manufacturing their own image of God. Maybe this is why there is so much religious conflict in this world about how God manifests and to whom. Otherwise, if everyone was seeing God, wouldn’t they all be seeing the same God?) Hey, that’s 3rd time this quote appears in under 2 dozen posts! And this makes it the 4th… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/22 "2000-09-15T20:30:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > There are far fewer people who are willing to put what they believe on display for someone’s entertainment or “amusement.” You see how many have flocked to answer your oh-so-heartfelt call, don’t you? Even though I am an unrepentant sinner – maybe, since God only knows what is right and what is wrong – I still take the topic quite seriously. As Greil Marcus once wrote: even pissing on the altar is a sign of respect. I don’t feel I’ve done that anyway. (The next book on my reading list is Mourre’s In Spite of Blasphemy if I can find it in English.) > [@](#): > > _this_ particular post is trollish, and is getting the attention it rightly deserves from thinking religious people – which is to say, none. You are the one who brought this flaw to my attention, but I already [started a thread on this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=38314) so this isn’t the proper realm of discussion for it. I still maintain it is a legitimate point of debate. If anyone would care to save my soul, please help. (and I know a real troll would try to sound just as pleading and innocuous, but oh well I can’t win. I usually think of a trolling post as one which brings up a point of contention that has already been discussed a million times before and as such is a known point of contention) BTW, **Kyber – who is Celsus?** ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/23 "2000-09-15T20:36:02Z")
Second-century Neoplatonist. See [Celsus](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03490a.htm). ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/24 "2000-09-15T20:39:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dylan\_73 \* > **Religion is about discovering that you have free will, but also that you have responsibilities, rather than being a meaningless part of nothingness and therefore never taking responsibility for yourself.** This is a prime example of poor logic. Those without religion do not necessarily feel like a meaningless part of nothingness, nor are they likely to forego responsibility for their actions. Many are convinced they have free will, all the while keeping their religious convictions completely separate. You mistakenly draw a false dichotomy, thereby reaching an erroneous conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/25 "2000-09-15T20:42:24Z")
jmullaney: Celsus was a philosopher who wrote a work against Christians sometime in the early few hundreds. I don’t have my references here, so I can’t tell you exactly when – 200AD? His works haven’t survived directly, probably because Christian writers didn’t particularly like it, and when they got the upper hand, it didn’t survive. (I hasten to point out that they didn’t have to destroy his work – all they had to do was neglect to copy it when they were the only copying game in town.) However, a Christian writer whose name I cannot recall (but someone here will, I am sure) wrote his own book, “Against Celsus” (“Contra Celsus”), which was sio detailed in its rebuttals that we can reconstruct Celsus’ book from it. Contra Celsus is available in English translation. You might also want to check out references in the Catholic Encyclopedia and other references on Celsus. There’s quite a bit on Celsus and his book in Morton Smith’s “Jesus the Magician”, a book that should be read with care and more than a grain of salt, regardless of whether you are a believer or not. And if Celsus had only added an “i” to his name, he could have nvented the decimal temperature scale! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/26 "2000-09-15T20:49:34Z")
\*a Christian writer whose name I cannot recall (but someone here will, I am sure) wrote his own book, “Against Celsus” (“Contra Celsus”). \* Origen. (We live to serve! :)) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/27 "2000-09-15T20:52:28Z")
I believe Ghandi once said something like, “If only you Christians were more like your Christ.” Or something to that effect. Help me out, peoples! ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/28 "2000-09-15T20:55:59Z")
Well, granted they didn’t copy it, but between the Christians and the Muslims, there was quite a bit of active destruction of classical texts going on too. And not just the library of Alexandia. Often valuable texts would be just overwritten with whatever was being copied at the time, writing materials being rare and all… Also, other stuff by Celsus must have survived, since I posted a link that discuses treatise on circumcision by him in GQ. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=38549](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=38549) So I assume the lack of copying only extends to that one text the quote comes from? Personally, I find it hilarious, because, prejudiced or no, I assume Celsus got his material from somewhere. Presumably the evangelical appeals to return to the brotherhood and unity of the early church have little basis. Things haven’t changed at all, really, in the last two millenia. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/29 "2000-09-15T20:57:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\*\*a Christian writer whose name I cannot recall (but someone here will, I am sure) wrote his own book, “Against Celsus” (“Contra Celsus”). \* > > Origen. (We live to serve! :)) \*\* Yes, I was reading bits of his text. Speaking of bits, wasn’t he the one who chopped a fairly important bit of his anatomy off for Christ and was made a saint for it? Or was that some other early church father? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/30 "2000-09-15T21:24:17Z")
JMULLANY, my OP was not directed at you – heck, it didn’t even follow a post by you. It was directed at the OP. I assure you that if I had been addressing you, I would not have added the caveat “I don’t know if you’re consistently a troll . . . .” I am absolutely convinced that, on this subject at least, you **are** a troll. And, no, Kyberneticist, I’m not joking, and I doubt Satan was either. ---
**Author:** ![Initial\_Entry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@Initial\_Entry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Initial_Entry)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/31 "2000-09-15T21:35:30Z")
Joachim: have you not yet accepting the magnificent pinkness of the Invisible Pink Unicorn into your heart? I feel great pain in my heart for you. Please convert. Pretty please with sugar on top. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/32 "2000-09-15T22:23:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > **It was directed at the OP.** My mistake – I really wasn’t sure which troll accusal on this thread you were refering to, and didn’t realize Joachim had some sort of history of what you deem trolling, and so I was presumptive. He seems like an affable enough gentleman to me. I asked on ATMB as to what a troll is anyway, so perhaps you would care to explain there what exactly you mean by this word. If all you have is a hammer… ---
**Author:** ![Joachim\_Pieper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Joachim\_Pieper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joachim_Pieper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/33 "2000-09-16T04:47:52Z")
I have a history of Trolling? Hell, I’ve only been on here a week! A little harsh, methinks… And, Jodi, how do you know I’m not willing to talk about it? Oh, sorry, my mistake, you don’t… 🙂 Now, to me, what’s going on is debate of a fairly healthy standard. But if you don’t like it, we shall endeavour to do better… And, Initial Entry, since you asked so nicely, I’ll think about it 😃 Quicksilver, you’ll have to convince me on the first one (it wouldn’t be fun if I let let you have it, now would it?), and on your second point, how, pray tell, can I possibly prove my existence if God hasn’t seemed to manage it after all these years? Twenty questions perhaps? I’m all for it! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/34 "2000-09-16T14:19:07Z")
Never let it be said that I’ve not learned anything during my time here… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joachim Pieper \* > Quicksilver, you’ll have to convince me on the first one (it wouldn’t be fun if I let let you have it, now would it?) Alright. Give me an example of an epistemology that isn’t. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joachim Pieper \* > and on your second point, how, pray tell, can I possibly prove my existence if God hasn’t seemed to manage it after all these years? Twenty questions perhaps? I’m all for it! \*\* It’s not that he hasn’t managed it. It’s that you’ve failed to recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![Joachim\_Pieper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Joachim\_Pieper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joachim_Pieper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/35 "2000-09-16T18:28:37Z")
Oh, my mistake! What have I missed? I was of the mind that faith defies proof. But there you go… I’m afraid I’m not about to do all the work for you on the epistemology. If you want to prove your point, do so. Until then, it’s safe to say I’m not convinced… And, this is what I’ve been waiting for all these years. Explain exactly which definitive proof of God’s existence I’ve missed. Oh, and if you say that God is in the flowers and the birds, I can’t guarentee I’ll hang on to my dinner 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/36 "2000-09-16T18:38:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by QuickSilver \* > \*\* > 2) Convince us that you exist so that we are not wasting out time. > > Otherwise, you’re on your own. > \*\* Sweet Fuck, I wish every christian preacher subscribed to this theory. Would make my life a whole lot nicer. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/37 "2000-09-16T20:17:01Z")
Wait a minute. We have 100 post threads about people DON’T want to be converted, and the Christians just don’t understand what they’re so upset about. Now somebody WANTS to be converted and nobody shows up? No FoG? No Wildest Bill? Maybe this tells you something about some Christians. (Maybe it has some relation to the persecution complex- {see other thread on christian persection complex}) ---
**Author:** ![barker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@barker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/38 "2000-09-16T22:02:54Z")
**betenoir** I think you need to reread the OP. Nowhere does it state that he wants to be converted. Only putting out a baited challenge. Your view on Christians on the board is totally without merit. There are very few that work on actively converting anyone. I find them as annoying as anyone else does. ---
**Author:** ![gloria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@gloria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gloria)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/39 "2000-09-16T23:24:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joachim Pieper \* > \*\* > It’s an Einstein qoute that I like the best : > “If God did not exist, then it would be necessary for man to invent him…” > To be honest, I’m more interested in the actual attmept at conversion than in becoming a religious type. I’m really only after a conversation with someone who has cast-iron beliefs. I find such people amusing and fascinating in equal measures. Call it a Troll if you will, but I want to give it a go… \*\* If you are really willing to convert, the first question you have to make to yourself is Christians being agressive to each others the will of God or their own. I defere from the axiom You need God because you need to be told what to do. All religions have moral directions, but is onto man to follow them or not, you have your free will to do what you want that was the marvelous gift from God, he wants all of us to be happy, that is why he created everything that is on it on perfection, and told us what to do in order to keep it this way, this is the whole meaning of life, to be happy. This doesn´t has anything to do with Christianity, or Budism, Thaoism, or any other religion, but with human nature. I´m willing to proog my iron believes and commitments. ---
**Author:** ![gloria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b38774/32.png) [@gloria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gloria)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2000, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266/40 "2000-09-17T00:29:53Z")
Dear Brother Joaquim, I´m sorry I was not here when you were trying to convert… this wont be on my hands, it will be on your heart, if you really need our Heavenly Father, he will be with you, he is the one that can convert you If you really want ask him from the bottom of your heart, He loves all of us and He wants us to be happy that is why He gives us the most precious gift that is life in this beautiful world made by him,the sun, the tree, the oceans and rivers and each animal in its own species, they are here so every morning we can enjoy the sunrise the dawn, winter, spring, summer or fall, he doesn´t make us kill each other on the contrary he made us to live happy. Yes we have free will, so we have the choice of right from wrong, it is our own decission, and it is good because he gives us the opportunity to grow as spirits having a human experience, he loves us all, with our both sides good and bad (evil) and for the effort that some of us take every day in choosing right from wrong, but it is our own decission, our Heavenly Father awaits for us at the end of our Human lifes to live with him as more developed spirits. He doesn´t make people do evil, regardless of their religions, We always have those two options, my church is part of a Christian religion and we are not allowed to fight on Gods name therefore a debate on this subject I will not answear, only the questions that you seriously want to make regarding it. If you want to know more details on the name of the Church I belong to let me know on my e-mail, but I will answear every person any open question that is made with respect to what it represents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-convert-me-please/33266.md?page=3)