# Can someone defend Kerry's treatment of our allies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835 "2004-09-24T06:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/41 "2004-10-11T03:24:20Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I just find it unbelievably ironic that after all the venom Bush has spewed at Kerry, that you would expect Kerry to handle Bush with kid gloves. No one in this thread, save you, has addressed how Kerry should speak to Bush. FWIW, I have no problem whatsoever with his attacks on Bush. Actually, I wouldn’t mind at all if Kerry’s criticism’s of Bush were more explicit and forceful than they have been. The OP, and the whole thread, refers exclusively to how Kerry and his people have spoken about _other_ countries and their leaders. > [@](#): > > I don’t buy that for a second. It would be simplicity itself, if one is so hell bent on mentioning that she is part of his campaign staff, to simply say so AND give her identity. There’s still no reason to mask the fact that it was Kerry’s sister. Again, how exactly does posting the link mean I am “masking” something? I didn’t mention it because I’m operating on the assumption that she was hired as a professional to do a job. > [@](#): > > You continue to deny the obvious fact that Bush’s “coalition” is a farce. Sorry, but until you can provide a universal objective criteria by which all coalitions are measured, I’ll take this that as your opinion, not a fact. Could the coalitions have been stronger? Obviously, and I have no problem with criticisms of Bush’s diplomacy. I have my own. What I object to, very strongly, is going beyond criticising Bush and into insulting and belittling foreign leaders. This is not a difficult line to walk; any competent politician can do so if he chooses. That is what this thread is about; that and the fact that this is a very dangerous line to start blurring. What concerns me the most is the sense that some are conflating other nations’ support (or non-support) for the US with support for the a particular administration. I find this trend – which I see on both sides of the aisle – troubling. > [@](#): > > Nonsense, furt. You were rude, and you know it perfectly well. It’s really sad how you can’t keep your emotions in check. Dude, if you wanna know the truth, I’m clinically depressed and haven’t gotten happy, angry or otherwise emotional, let alone “freaking out” in weeks. I’d actually be thrilled to find myself getting worked up over an internet posting; but alas, everything I’ve written in this thread has been done with a weary sigh and a blank face. So much for assuming. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/42 "2004-10-11T05:40:05Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The PM of Poland said the other day he took it personally; I don’t see why John Howard or Tony Blair shouldn’t. The PM of Poland also said the other day that he felt he’d been “misled” on WMD. With 70% of the Poles against their contry’s involvement in Iraq, you can _bet_ that whatever Kwasniewsky says is mostly for Polish consumption. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/43 "2004-10-11T05:47:09Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I posted this thread after hearing what Kerry said about Allawi, and thinking back toprevious things. You wanna address what I said, or you want to hypothesize about my reading habits? Alright. The claim that Kerry is demeaning our allies (gasp!) is baseless, whoever it came from. Unless somehow it’s in poor taste to note that several of our major allies told us to get bent on the whole subject of Iraq, and it’s somehow bad taste to mention what the statistics bear out: an overwhelming majority of the troops, casualties, and money involved in the war are American. It’s not belittling Poland to note that this is the result of a rushed war and a botched diplomatic effort. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/44 "2004-10-11T05:52:40Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, I think that right there trumps any number of op-eds. YMMV. Not when the last election was in June, 2001, before 9/11 and well before Blair led the UK into this sorry mess, courtesy of Dubya. ---
**Author:** ![Nurobath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Nurobath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurobath)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/45 "2004-10-11T06:14:40Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, I think that right there trumps any number of op-eds. YMMV. How does the outcome of an election in 2001 (before the UK got involved with Bush and this war) trump anything? Did you even read the rest of **glee’s** post? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/46 "2004-10-11T07:04:03Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > The ally contributing the most to the US is the UK. Not a natural allegience, Labour and the Republicans. I can tell you that Tony Blair’s govt is none too keen on Bush either. Essentially, Bush promised Blair 2 things to get help get the UK onside: > > 1. No invasion without a UN vote. > > 2. Positive progress on resolving the Palestine/Israeli problems including taking a firm line on stopping West Bank settlements. > > Once Blair had committed the UK to an unpopular war, the promises evaporated. It was a great political risk. You don’t do diplomacy like that. Wrong. There was no vote because France said it would unconditionally veto any such vote. That is what got Blair off the hook for a UN vote. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/47 "2004-10-11T07:09:58Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The OP, and the whole thread, refers exclusively to how Kerry and his people have spoken about _other_ countries and their leaders. But that’s just it. If Kerry criticizes Bush’s handling of the war, the right-wingers _interpret_ it that way. If Kerry points out that Bush didn’t build a true coalition, but rather deceived and pressured a few countries to make a token showing, he’s really criticizing Bush. But the right-wingers are gonna say, “[gasp] How _dare_ he say those countries allowed themselves to be deceived and pressured. How dare he call them stupid.” You CAN’T make an accurate criticism of Bush’s handling of Iraq without pointing out that Bush coerced and misled the “coalition” members. But the right is trying to create this false idea that if Kerry points that out, that he’s insulting those countries. It’s an unfair tactic. And it completely misses the point that anything Kerry does in that regard _still_ pales in comparison to the slap in the face Bush has given to our allies. It’s the pot calling the kettle black. You want to talk about insulting other countries? How about declaring them “irrelevant”? The republicans don’t have a leg to stand on in this; they’re just blowing smoke. > [@](#): > > Again, how exactly does posting the link mean I am “masking” something? I didn’t mention it because I’m operating on the assumption that she was hired as a professional to do a job. We’re just going back and forth on this. I made my point, and you made yours, so why don’t we drop it. > [@](#): > > Sorry, but until you can provide a universal objective criteria by which all coalitions are measured, I’ll take this that as your opinion, not a fact. OF COURSE it’s my opinion, and I think it’s a well-formed one. Kerry has repeatedly pointed out that the U.S. has borne 90% of the casualties and 90% of the cost in this “coalition”, and Bush has not refuted that. I don’t know how anyone can call that a coalition with a straight face. I think you’re blinded by partisanship. > [@](#): > > Could the coalitions have been stronger? Obviously, and I have no problem with criticisms of Bush’s diplomacy. I have my own. > > What I object to, very strongly, is going beyond criticising Bush and into insulting and belittling foreign leaders. Kerry hasn’t done that. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/48 "2004-10-11T07:27:49Z")
> [@furt](#): > > She was there as part of the campaign. No, she wasn’t. She was interviewed in the US by an Australian newspaper in which she made the rather mundane observation that excessive closeness to the US had endangered Australians, a view shared by many here as it happens. Her comments passed pretty much without mention here, and all in all the incident is an incredibly pathetic attempt by your right to find an issue to beat Kerry over the head with. As far as Australians go its a non-issue, few of us care what John Kerry’s sister thinks even if we have heard of her. Which we havent. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/49 "2004-10-11T07:56:22Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Wrong. There was no vote because France said it would unconditionally veto any such vote. That is what got Blair off the hook for a UN vote. That quote is out of context and has been extensively debunked. What Chirac actually said was that he would under no circumstances accept automaticity in the resolution - IOW, he would not accept a resolution that placed the final decision about going to war outside the UN Security council. His stance was that the inspectors were to finish, report to the Security Council and the Council would then make the decision. Of course, the UK/US spinmakers wasted no time in twisting those words into the version you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/50 "2004-10-11T08:31:17Z")
As a citizen of a country member of the “coalition of the bribed, the coerced, the bought and the extorted” I am underwhelmed and very non-offended by Mr. Kerry’s remarks. That is no news to us. This country was overwhelmingly opposed to our participation in that war, even with our more-than-close ties to the US. Our Minister of Foreign Relations quit in protest when the president made the unilateral decision to ‘assist’ the US. Although nobody knows what promises where made, it is (for us) an article of faith that the stinky weasel that we had for a president at that time wouldn’t have moved a finger without something in return. And still Powell had to promise that our boys would be put out of combat zone (sort of like Denmark sending a submarine). Anyways, since you guys are doing so well we decided to take our 30 soldiers home. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/51 "2004-10-11T20:26:52Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Anyways, since you guys are doing so well we decided to take our 30 soldiers home. 😉 This is all _Kerry’s_ fault. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/52 "2004-10-11T22:44:22Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Wrong. There was no vote because France said it would unconditionally veto any such vote. That is what got Blair off the hook for a UN vote. While your implication has already been corrected, your facts are a bit weak as well. There was no vote because the US didn’t ask for one. Despite this: > [@](#): > > _President Bush, [National Press Conference](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030306-8.html), 3/6/03_ > No matter what the whip count is, we’re calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/53 "2004-10-11T23:43:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Unless somehow it’s in poor taste to note that several of our major allies told us to get bent on the whole subject of Iraq, and it’s somehow bad taste to mention what the statistics bear out: an overwhelming majority of the troops, casualties, and money involved in the war are American. No, I think those are perfectly fair things to point out. But I think saying that the other nations there have been “bribed or coerced” is bad form. Again, criticizing Bush for his failures is fine with me; implying that nations and leaders that are allied with us are anything other than soverign nations and fast freinds deserving of our sincere thanks is not. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/54 "2004-10-12T01:03:29Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > But that’s just it. If Kerry criticizes Bush’s handling of the war, the right-wingers _interpret_ it that way… I’ve nowhere addressed anyone’s interpretation. I am addressing specific statements made by Kerry and his people. > [@](#): > > You CAN’T make an accurate criticism of Bush’s handling of Iraq without pointing out that Bush coerced and misled the “coalition” members. Misled? Well, that’s a different story. But who exactly has been coerced, I’ve no idea. Have there been incentives for participating, and consequences for not? Sure, but that’s always the way it is. There were carrots and sticks in 91 and in Kosovo. Whether or not that amounts to bribery and coercion is an opinion, naturally; but even if you think that is the case, it’s off the point. The whole task of diplomacy is that of telling lies of courtesy to people you want something from. Isn’t that one of the criticisms of Bush, that he goes off, cowboy-like and doesn’t know how to finesse these foreign leaders? And it is absolutely not impossible to criticise Bush without impugning foreign leaders or nations. In fact it’s damned easy: \*"My criticisms of the war have been twofold: firstly, I do not believe it should have happened at all; and once it did happen I think the President did a very poor job in securing adequate international support for the war. I want to make it clear that in no way am I discounting the significant and important contributions made by the nations who are helping us there. But the task in Iraq is a very large one, and would have been made easier on everyone if there were even more hands. To be very frank, I feel that we as a nation have failed these allies. They put their trust in us and in the Bush Administration, and we repaid them by leading them into an unnecessary and badly-planned conflict, exposing their people as well as our own to more danger than was necessary." \* There you go; a sharp critique of Bush that actually praises foreign leaders. And that was the top of my head. Could the pubs spin that? Probably, but that’s irrelevant. > [@](#): > > OF COURSE it’s my opinion, and I think it’s a well-formed one. Kerry has repeatedly pointed out that the U.S. has borne 90% of the casualties and 90% of the cost in this “coalition”, and Bush has not refuted that. I don’t know how anyone can call that a coalition with a straight face. [Be careful about statistics.](http://ww2bodycount.netfirms.com/) But, again, this is off the point. My beef is not that Kerry is wrong on the facts, but that Kerry is being undiplomatic in the way he talks about these other nations. As I’ve demonstrated above, it’s fairly easy to slam Bush and praise Blair, Major, et al. in the same breath. He’s chosen not to. > [@](#): > > I think you’re blinded by partisanship. :rolleyes: To repeat: I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN. I did not vote for Bush in 2000. I will not vote for him this year. I didn’t vote for his father. I think Clinton was okay. I like Joe Lieberman a lot. Please read this paragraph as many times as necessary. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/55 "2004-10-12T01:08:32Z")
> [@Eolbo](#): > > No, she wasn’t. I stand corrected; she was apparently in the US when she spoke. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/56 "2004-10-12T07:14:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > [Be careful about statistics.](http://ww2bodycount.netfirms.com/) Sorry, I make it a policy not to bother with people who post links as arguments in and of themselves. If you have a good argument, you can put it in the thread in your own words, or post a quote. I do not click on blind links. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: To repeat: I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN. I did not vote for Bush in 2000. I will not vote for him this year. I didn’t vote for his father. I think Clinton was okay. I like Joe Lieberman a lot. Please read this paragraph as many times as necessary. I don’t really care what you call yourself; you are obviously seeing Bush through rose-colored glasses, and using weak RNC talking-points to slam Kerry. You may not call yourself a Republican, but your shtik is right out of the Republican handbook. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/57 "2004-10-12T07:33:52Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Again, criticizing Bush for his failures is fine with me; implying that nations and leaders that are allied with us are anything other than soverign nations and fast freinds deserving of our sincere thanks is not. Is that because the statement that those nations were bribed is false, or because it’s rude? I don’t think Kerry implied that anyway. I would say his point is that Bush was only able to get other nations involved in this thing by either buying off or threatening their governments (even in the countries that helped out, most of the people were opposed). He was unable to persuade many that the war was necessary or right, only that it would be in their best interests to go along with it. What kind of diplomacy is that, and what kind of coalition is it? I think that explains why so many of the countries involved have offered only token support. (Oops, there I go offending our allies again.) If Bush is so concerned about our allies, why were France and Germany and Russia treated as they were? What was with the “Old Europe” bullshit? Calling this is a real international effort is insulting to everybody’s intelligence. Bush and Cheney’s false indignation at this shocking, cruel insult to our brave allies is even worse. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/58 "2004-10-12T14:45:55Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > If you have a good argument, you can put it in the thread in your own words, or post a quote. “As a sidenote, It’s worth pointing out that well over 90% or allied casualties in WWII were Russian or Chinese.” > [@](#): > > I don’t really care what you call yourself; you are obviously seeing Bush through rose-colored glasses, and using weak RNC talking-points to slam Kerry. You may not call yourself a Republican, but your shtik is right out of the Republican handbook. This thread is not about Bush. I have never addressed Bush’s actions. You quite obviously have no idea what I think of Bush, or you wouldn’t be talking this way. I addressed Kerry’s comments and asked his supporters to defend them. Some people are capable of moving beyond either-or thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/59 "2004-10-12T16:19:37Z")
> [@furt](#): > > =First, we have the repeated dismissals of the US’s coalition in Iraq as (paraphrasing) a collection of small unimportant countries. This would be a stupid thing to do even if it were completely accurate – Presidents are supposed to stand there with a straight face and say they value the aid and support of East Buttfickistan. It’s interesting how criticism of the administration so easily becomes a demonstration of unfitness for the presidency. Ina ny sane political discourse, this argument would be laughed out of the room. But the Republican echo chamber creates these “issues.” Let me ask this question: How does this characterisation of Kerry compare with an administration whose cabinet officers and legislative allies go out of their way to demean and insult long-time allies – repeatedly and continuously? To the extent that Bush supporters even today use the word “French” as an insult? And speaking of prudency of speech as a presidential virtue – how does this compare to a president who publicly announces an “axis of evil” and then goes about waging war on one of its members, practicaly forcing the other two to step up their nuclear ambitions? As you say “even if it were completely accurate,” was it a smart thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/60 "2004-10-12T16:27:15Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, but outside of the wignut left, folks don’t think that way. They want a president that can be courteous and statesmanlike. It’s amazing you can say this with a straight face. Bush has no standing to tell anyone anything about diplomacy. The Bush administration is perceived by the rest of the world as the most arrogant, unscrupulous, ham-handed, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835.md?page=4)