# Can someone defend Kerry's treatment of our allies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835 "2004-09-24T06:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/101 "2004-10-20T19:35:09Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Could you at least _try_to stay with the conversation here? Oh, God… It cuts both ways. It means that both right and left might be wrong about the man (for entirely different reasons). It means that Kerry might be neither a flip-flopper nor refined diplomatic genius. In fact, all the evidence points that Kerry is very strong-headed and plain spoken. Neither right or left are interested to dwell on that. If you are stuck on a certain point doesn’t mean that I should. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/102 "2004-10-20T19:47:22Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It cuts both ways. It means that both right and left might be wrong about the man (for entirely different reasons). No, it means that both the right and _you_ are setting up different kinds of straw men. I haven’t heard Kerry claim to be a “diplomatic genius.” He has simply said that Bush botched the pre-war diplomacy and, for various reasons, he would not have botched it. His claim is simply that he would have succeeded where Bush had failed and it is not dependent on his being a genius, nor is it simply dependent upon his powers of persuasion. Kerry’s position is that he would have started with a completely different attitude and strategy to handling the Iraq problem, not that he would have done exactly what Bush did but nevertheless have ended up with more allies going into the Iraq invasion. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/103 "2004-10-20T20:25:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > No, it means that both the right and _you_ are setting up different kinds of straw men. I haven’t heard Kerry claim to be a “diplomatic genius.” I am not setting any strawmen. I never said that Kerry _describes himself_ as a “diplomatic genius.” You are inventing words I never said. What I said was exactly the following, > [@](#): > > …I have no problem with Kerry bluntness. The problem I have is with those who peddle him as a ‘nuanced diplomatist’. Those who peddle such image of Kerry come both from left and right (for different reasons). ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/104 "2004-10-20T21:04:01Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Oh, God… > > It cuts both ways. That is meaningless. > [@](#): > > It means that both right and left might be wrong about the man (for entirely different reasons). To discuss whether the “right” and “left” are right or wrong, we must first identify _what_ the right and left are saying. You have mischaracterized what they are saying. You seem to think that the LEFT is calling Kerry “nuanced” as a selling-point, when in fact, the RIGHT is calling Kerry “nuanced” as an insult. One cannot be wrong about a claim if one NEVER MADE the claim. That’s what we mean by a “strawman” argument. It would be like ME saying, “Why do republicans keep bragging about Bush being a liar?” It’s nonsensical. > [@](#): > > It means that Kerry might be neither a flip-flopper nor refined diplomatic genius. In fact, all the evidence points that Kerry is very strong-headed and plain spoken. Neither right or left are interested to dwell on that. Not true. Throughout the campaign, the right has been calling Kerry a “flip-flopper”, while the left has been saying that he is NOT. Democrats would in fact be quite pleased to hear republicans refer to Kerry as “plain-spoken”. > [@](#): > > If you are stuck on a certain point doesn’t mean that I should. The reason we are stuck is that you refuse to address my point, but continue to talk _around_ it. > [@](#): > > ## Quote: …I have no problem with Kerry bluntness. The problem I have is with those who peddle him as a ‘nuanced diplomatist’. > > Those who peddle such image of Kerry come both from left and right (for different reasons). You quoted _yourself_? Maybe we should just stand back and let you argue with yourself. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/105 "2004-10-20T21:25:42Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > To discuss whether the “right” and “left” are right or wrong, we must first identify _what_ the right and left are saying. Perhaps it will help if you read [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/10/magazine/10KERRY.html?ex=1098417600&en=af937c4ed4ec080a&ei=5070&oref=login&oref=login&oref=login&pagewanted=all). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/106 "2004-10-20T22:42:10Z")
\ I’d just like to comment that the title of this thread is stupid. _Nothing_ that Kerry has done needs defending as much as what the Bush Administration has done in the last four years to our allies. Instead of diplomacy and cooperation, we’re now reduced to cheap taunts like “Freedom fries” and “Old Europe.” \ (Just wanted to get that off my chest) ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/107 "2004-10-21T06:44:06Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Perhaps it will help if you read [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/10/magazine/10KERRY.html?ex=1098417600&en=af937c4ed4ec080a&ei=5070&oref=login&oref=login&oref=login&pagewanted=all). Great - a long, meandering, pointless editorial. Yes, that really helps.:rolleyes: Would it be too much trouble for you to just _tell_ us your point? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/108 "2004-10-21T07:44:56Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Great - a long, meandering, pointless editorial. Yes, that really helps.:rolleyes: It was you who said, “_we must first identify what the right and left are saying_”. I think the article I referenced lays out a lot of detail about what Kerry and Bush are saying, how their aides spin it, how media interprets it and how people understand all this chaos. Yes, it is extremely complex picture. As it comes to Kerry, this thread provoked a very strong and entirely unexpected suspicion that the man is really extremely blunt, not ‘nuanced’ or ‘complex’ at all. Just listen what Kerry is really saying, “[I would have brought our allies to our side. I would have fought to make certain our troops had everybody possible to help them win the mission.](http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004c.html)” I have no doubt now that he means it (I had before). The question is who would he fight to build a coalition? Those who didn’t want to join? Chirac and Shroeder? Fine by me. As far as offending our real allies, he is involved in the most serious political fight in the world and he has to keep punching all the time. Bush was using many cheap shots in his battle with Gore, too. Overall, I think now that Kerry might make a good President and I wish him the best of luck. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/109 "2004-10-21T07:48:35Z")
Luck be damned! Vote! ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/110 "2004-10-21T08:28:10Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It was you who said, “_we must first identify what the right and left are saying_”. I think the article I referenced lays out a lot of detail about what Kerry and Bush are saying, how their aides spin it, how media interprets it and how people understand all this chaos. Yes, it is extremely complex picture. Am I speaking English here? YOU contend that the left TOUTS Kerry as “nuanced”. I said that no, the RIGHT calls Kerry “nuanced”, and it’s not as a compliment. THAT’S what I was referring to when I said “identify what the right and left are saying.” Where on EARTH did you get the idea that I was asking you for a lengthy article on the subject? It’s like you print out the thread, cut each sentence into it’s own isolated piece of paper and put it in a box all by itself. > [@](#): > > As it comes to Kerry, this thread provoked a very strong and entirely unexpected suspicion that the man is really extremely blunt, not ‘nuanced’ or ‘complex’ at all. Just listen what Kerry is really saying, That has nothing to do with the current argument. We’re talking about whether the left is touting Kerry as “nuanced”. > [@](#): > > “[I would have brought our allies to our side. I would have fought to make certain our troops had everybody possible to help them win the mission.](http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004c.html)” irrelevant. > [@](#): > > I have no doubt now that he means it (I had before). The question is who would he fight to build a coalition? Those who didn’t want to join? Chirac and Shroeder? Fine by me. irrelevant > [@](#): > > As far as offending our real allies, he is involved in the most serious political fight in the world and he has to keep punching all the time. Bush was using many cheap shots in his battle with Gore, too. irrelevant. You keep saying: “The democrats say Kerry is nuanced, but he’s not.” And I keep saying: “But the democrats aren’t saying that.” And you keep responding, “But he’s not nuanced.” :smack: Are you just screwing with me now? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/111 "2004-10-21T14:09:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Luck be damned! Vote! Are you one of those Internet predators, lurking to exploit my insecurity and excitability? Ma warned me about people like you. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/112 "2004-10-21T15:56:38Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Am I speaking English here? > > We’re talking about whether the left is touting Kerry as “nuanced”. > > You keep saying: “The democrats say Kerry is nuanced, but he’s not.” > And I keep saying: “But the democrats aren’t saying that.” Did you even _read_ the NYT article? > [@](#): > > The man who would be the first Vietnam veteran to occupy the Oval Office has doggedly tried to merge both worldviews, repeatedly vowing to fight both a more fierce and a more restrained, multifaceted war on terror. **Aides** say this is evidence of his capacity to envision complex solutions for a complex world; voters, through the summer and early fall, seemed less impressed. > [@](#): > > When I asked Kerry’s **campaign advisers** about these poll numbers, what I heard from some of them in response was that Kerry’s theories on global affairs were just too complex for the electorate and would have been ignored – or, worse yet, mangled – by the press. > [@](#): > > This is, of course, a **common Democratic** refrain: Republicans sound more coherent because they see the world in such a rudimentary way, while Democrats, 10 steps ahead of the rest of the country, wrestle with profound policy issues that don’t lend themselves to slogans. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/113 "2004-10-21T16:10:27Z")
Just one more [Nuance](http://www.kerryhatersforkerry.com/) ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835/114 "2004-10-21T17:28:09Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Did you even _read_ the NYT article? Yet another obfuscatory response. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-defend-kerrys-treatment-of-our-allies/265835.md?page=5)