# Can someone explain DC's Apokolips to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927 "2005-05-01T03:59:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927/21 "2005-05-02T22:22:21Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > LIke I said in OP, I don’t think DC has kept the concept consistant. For example, Apokolips is apparently a planet located somewhere in physical space (unlike Marvel’s Asgard, which is in a mythical plane), but then you have to ask just where the Source Wall is (other than “the end of Infinity” or some such). Actually, Apokolips/New Genesis are in another dimension from Earth, unlike say Rann, Krypton, and Thanagar. Apparently, if you somehow go there without being translated through a Boom Tube, you’ll be really tiny when you come out. Supergirl found this out when she used her flaming wings\* to teleport there in pursuit of some Female Furies. \*'Twas an odd period for the Maid of Might. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927/22 "2005-05-02T23:33:39Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Etrigan isn’t rhyming anymore. Neron is, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927/23 "2005-05-03T03:09:14Z")
Just a quick question…are Apokolips and New Genesis somehow vital to the existance of the universe in some magical/cosmic sense—kind of like if you killed Marvel’s Galactus, the universe would end, or something—or could you get away with destroying one or both of them with a Planet-Killer? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927/24 "2005-05-03T03:25:18Z")
They’re not particularly vital - a couple Elseworlds and potential futures have posited the destruction of one or the other. Apokalips was (accidentally) wiped out in The Nail, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927/25 "2005-05-03T07:15:18Z")
“There came a time when the old gods died! The brave died with the cunning! The noble perished, locked in battle with unleashed evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in a fiery holocaust!” - the opening words of _New Gods_ # 1 Also, I’m pretty sure Apokolips is just a planet in our universe, but I can’t find my dc universe atlas to verify. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927/26 "2005-05-03T09:57:02Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > I loved Sandman, and haven’t heard anything but good things about Lucifer, but I really wish DC hadn’t declared Lucifer’s abdication to hold true for all their books. It makes telling a good devil story just that more difficult. A little hijack: could someone explain how this works in conjunction with _Hellblazer_? Are Lucifer, Azrael and Beelzebub of _Sandman_ the same as the First, Second and Third in _Hellblazer_? If so, how could Lucifer both abdicate in _Sandman_ and be killed by Ellie in _Hellblazer_, at which time he is very much still in control of Hell? How come Azrael can both be imprisoned in a glass jar by Dream and destroyed by the First? If they’re not the same, why doesn’t the First mention Lucifer when he’s telling his life story to Constantine in _Rake at the Gates of Hell_, and where are the Three during Dream’s visit to Hell? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2005, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927/27 "2005-05-03T11:08:17Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > A little hijack: could someone explain how this works in conjunction with _Hellblazer_? > > Are Lucifer, Azrael and Beelzebub of _Sandman_ the same as the First, Second and Third in _Hellblazer_? If so, how could Lucifer both abdicate in _Sandman_ and be killed by Ellie in _Hellblazer_, at which time he is very much still in control of Hell? How come Azrael can both be imprisoned in a glass jar by Dream and destroyed by the First? If they’re not the same, why doesn’t the First mention Lucifer when he’s telling his life story to Constantine in _Rake at the Gates of Hell_, and where are the Three during Dream’s visit to Hell? [spoiler]The First of the Fallen predated Lucifer and his wave of fallen angels. He ruled Hell - or what would become Hell - before Lucifer arived, and he took the throne again after he abdicated. Nor are the Second and Third Azazel and Beelzebub. I have only skimmed Rake at Hell’s Gate (I’m still in the middle of Delano’s run), so I can’t say anything about his explaining things to Constantine, but the First **does** mention Lucifer when he’s explaining to the Second and Third how they’re not the same as him. Lucifer was either more powerful, or more clever and it took him clearing out for the First to get a chance to come to power again. As to where they were in Sandman… They weren’t in power, they weren’t directly serving anyone in power, they didn’t hold any of Dream’s friends or possessions, they didn’t watch the gates and they either left Hell of their own free will or were driven off by Lucifer before Dream showed up for his tour of Hell. Dream, Cain, etc just didn’t run into them. The only problem I’m seeing is what happened to Remiel and Dumas? Are they playing hands off? Does the First draw his authority from them? Did he manage to overpower them?[/spoiler] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-dcs-apokolips-to-me/301927.md?page=1)