# Can someone explain in a nutshell EXACTLY what the Republicans object to re Obamacare **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358 "2016-02-17T18:00:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/21 "2016-02-17T20:38:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > [ul] > [li]Republicans object to helping undeserving and think this is immoral.[/li][li]Republicans think poor people are undeserving[/li][li]Republicans want people to suffer to teach them a lesson[/li][/ul] > > Do you really think these are accurate representations? They read like parody… Wow, you put a lot of effort into attempting to make your point. Calvinism DOES read like parody, no argument there. > [@](#): > > This notion that if you are poor, it is a sign of God’s disfavor has its roots in [Calvinism](http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/2/20/122457/619)(follow the link for the full text). > Quote: > …To the Calvinists, material success and wealth was a sign that you were one of the Elect, and thus were favored by God. Who better to shepherd a society populated by God’s wayward children? The poor, the weak, the infirm? God was punishing them for their sins. > > …\… > > What Calvinism accomplished was to fulfill the psychic needs of both upwardly mobile middle class entrepreneurs and alienated workers. Middle class businessmen (and they were men) could ascribe their economic success to their spiritual superiority. These businessmen and others who were predestined to be the Elect of God could turn to alienated workers, and explain to them that their impoverished economic condition was the result of a spiritual failure ordained by God. Their place in the spiritual (and economic) system was predestined. > > …\… > > Sound familiar? The Republican “Contract with America” and other legislative “reform” measures involving social welfare are implicitly built around early Calvinist ideas. ---
**Author:** ![ProDentite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@ProDentite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProDentite)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/22 "2016-02-17T20:40:11Z")
I don’t know about republicans but I can tell you about my issues with insurance since the ACA went into effect. My monthly payments have increased by 250% while I have been forced to buy an HMO because PPO’s are no longer an option where I work. To add insult to (financial) injury my family doctors, who my family has been seeing for 15 years just told us at our last check up that they are dropping our insurance (Blue Cross Anthem) over reimbursement disputes. So to re-cap, even though President Obama promised, I repeat promised, that we would pay less and not have to change our doctor’s under Obamacare the exact opposite has happened. So basically people like me don’t like being forced to buy something that is worse and more expensive than what it replaced. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/23 "2016-02-17T20:41:15Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Wow, you put a lot of effort into attempting to make your point. > > Calvinism DOES read like parody, no argument there. You ask about Republicans, but seem to be stuck on Calvinism. That’s strange. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/24 "2016-02-17T20:42:43Z")
I will explain the precise reason conservatives are opposed to Obamacare. President blackenstein advocated for it, along with democrats. That’s it. That is the primary animus. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/25 "2016-02-17T20:44:12Z")
Because racism. How trite. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/26 "2016-02-17T20:44:39Z")
Nutshell: It’s _my_ money,\* I\* should spend it how _I_ see fit. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/27 "2016-02-17T20:45:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Lots of folks object to the federal government forcing them to buy shit. > [@Bone](#): > > One reason - the government shouldn’t be able to force people to buy insurance if they don’t want to. Since this just repeats the same talking points over and over again, I’ll repeat the same question. Why is the government forcing people to buy health insurance only an issue when proposed by a black Democratic president, and not when proposed by, say, Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, or other Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/28 "2016-02-17T20:48:09Z")
> [@ProDentite](#): > > I don’t know about republicans but I can tell you about my issues with insurance since the ACA went into effect. **My monthly payments have increased by 250% while I have been forced to buy an HMO because _PPO’s are no longer an option where I work_.** To add insult to (financial) injury my family doctors, who my family has been seeing for 15 years just told us at our last check up that they are dropping our insurance (Blue Cross Anthem) over reimbursement disputes. > > So to re-cap, even though President Obama promised, I repeat promised, that we would pay less and not have to change our doctor’s under Obamacare the exact opposite has happened. > > So basically people like me don’t like being forced to buy something that is worse and more expensive than what it replaced. Sounds like a benefits issue with your employer. And if Blue Cross isn’t paying the doctor, how is that the ACA’s fault? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/29 "2016-02-17T20:49:21Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Since this just repeats the same talking points over and over again, I’ll repeat the same question. Why is the government forcing people to buy health insurance only an issue when proposed by a black Democratic president, and not when proposed by, say, Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, or other Republicans? You mean the talking points that opposition is racist? Those talking points? What are other specific policy proposals that forced people to buy health insurance that I was in favor of? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/30 "2016-02-17T21:14:10Z")
Plenty of straw men being propped up in this thread, as usual… > [@John\_Mace](#): > > We discussed this in pretty much every thread about Obamacare back when it was a hot topic. Lots of folks object to the federal government forcing them to buy shit. Actually, I was going to mention that in my earlier post, but decided not to. I can see not that I should have. This is a biggie. The “individual mandate” is a huge sore point. The government is telling people they have to buy health insurance, whether they want to or not. Also, people who already had health insurance are mostly seeing their premiums increase, by a lot. This is directly related to the individual mandate. The healthcare companies know that their product is not optional anymore, and are pricing accordingly. If this surprises anyone, it shouldn’t, because it was widely predicted beforehand. Also, at the same time insurance premiums are spiking, the value of that healthcare is eroding: deductables and copays are rising sharply, meaning you could easily need to pay a couple thousand dollars before your insurance even starts to kick in. So basically, we’re paying more and getting less in return. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/31 "2016-02-17T21:14:39Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Since this just repeats the same talking points over and over again, I’ll repeat the same question. Why is the government forcing people to buy health insurance only an issue when proposed by a black Democratic president, and not when proposed by, say, Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, or other Republicans? Please cite these federal plans that had no opposition. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/32 "2016-02-17T21:19:37Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I didn’t read all of those threads. So sue me. I was simply stating a fact, not pointiing out a character flaw on your part. Do you now understand the difference? We are making an effort to answer your question but so far you hsve not aknowledged it. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/33 "2016-02-17T21:20:02Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I didn’t read all of those threads. So sue me. You evidently don’t read your own threads, either. I gave you the answer, and you have not bothered to respond. I thought that you were serious in asking the question, but apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/34 "2016-02-17T21:26:42Z")
Personally, I have no skin in the game. I have experienced no change in my health coverage due to the ACA. I can understand the point that people don’t like the government telling them what to spend their money on. What I haven’t heard is the answer to the related question: If an uninsured person goes to the doctor or an emergency room and can’t provide payment, what should happen? If you think they should still be treated, you are asking someone else to pay for their care. Whoever the someone else turns out to be, at least some of them don’t want to be told to pay for that care. On the other hand, I don’t like the idea of health care as a “right”. You can’t have a right to something someone else has to provide. We can have social goals but they come with social expenses. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/35 "2016-02-17T21:27:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you now understand the difference? We are making an effort to answer your question but so far you hsve not aknowledged it. > [@Flyer](#): > > You evidently don’t read your own threads, either. > > I gave you the answer, and you have not bothered to respond. I thought that you were serious in asking the question, but apparently not. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Wow, you put a lot of effort into attempting to make your point. If only you’d put a similar level of effort in responding to a thread you created, ostensibly not as a parody. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/36 "2016-02-17T21:30:41Z")
This got too personal too fast. I got the information I wanted. Thanks to all who were not rude. Continue quietly among yourselves. \ ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/37 "2016-02-17T21:36:11Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Mandatory automobile insurance is not the same type of insurance as mandatory health insurance. Mandatory automobile insurance says “If you’re going to careen around on government roads with a ton of metal moving at fifty miles per hour, you must have the ability to pay for any damage you do _to anyone you run into_.” It does _not_ demand that you buy insurance to cover your own losses. Actually health insurance is exactly the same, except that there’s also a moral dimension that makes lack of insurance an even worse travesty than lack of automobile insurance. The purpose of mandatory auto liability insurance is to protect the public against losses incurred due to an at-fault driver who might otherwise be uninsured. One of the effects of mandatory health insurance is that it protects medical providers against losses due to the uninsured. These losses are substantial, particularly with the enactment of EMTALA-mandated ER care for the uninsured. ER physicians incur an average of around [$140,000 annually in EMTALA-related bad debt](http://www.acep.org/Clinical---Practice-Management/The-Impact-of-Unreimbursed-Care-on-the-Emergency-Physician/). Of 110 million ER visits annually, [nearly half are by the uninsured](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/07/the-crisis-in-hospital-emergency-departments-overcoming-the-burden-of-federal-regulation). The total costs borne by hospitals and practitioners are hard to estimate but are enormous by any measure – probably much more than $50 billion annually. Moreover, the risk factors are different – drivers might reasonably go a lifetime without making an auto insurance claim, but no one is going to last a lifetime without needing health care. In fact unless they have a life of perfect health and then have the good grace to drop dead on the spot, significant and costly medical intervention is practically guaranteed in everyone’s life. And these cost effects ripple down to everyone in the cost of health care and the cost of insurance, insurance costs being hit by the double impact of high provider costs and lack of universal participation. Moreover, there is a moral dimension in that ER treatments are not only the most expensive and inefficient way to deliver medical care, they are also inadequate and intended only for medical stabilization and not ongoing true medical care – and this is why an estimated [45,000 Americans die every years from lack of health insurance](http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/38 "2016-02-17T21:39:31Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Certainly it’s not a perfect law. Yeah, some people have lost coverage or have to pay more (from what I read), but all in all, it’s working okay for many, many people. But saying stuff like “Im going to repeal EVERY WORD!” when millions of people who never had healthcare coverage now have it…? > > The opponents don’t say, “It’s a good idea but flawed, and we can improve it,” or even, “Obama blatantly stole the provisions that were originally Republican ideas, and HE’S taking credit for them!” both of which objections would make some sense. > > Why do the Republicans see it as an evil swamp thang that must be stomped to death? Apart from the visceral hated of Obama (a given). What is their problem with the law itself. Its mostly a size of government thing for those whose objections extend beyond mere partisanship. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/39 "2016-02-17T21:46:03Z")
As others have said, the fact that Obama and the democrats support it, and the fact that it expands the role of the state are the major reasons. But other reasons include that obamacare can show that the government can make people’s lives better. Bill kristol said that Clintons health reform had succeeded, it could’ve opened the gates for more reform in other areas. I don’t know if that is true with obamacare though, our system is still pretty screwed-up and much of the benefit came. From subsidies. Another criticism they have is that it made single payer more realistic. Vermont tried and abandoned it, but Colorado may try this year. The aca gave states an option for single payer, which could catch on and become a national program. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358/40 "2016-02-17T21:52:04Z")
Missed the 5-minute edit window to actually add an answer to the OP in my earlier post #37. The original post basically explains why health insurance is essential and therefore either should be mandatory and essentially universal or, preferably, should be provided to everyone as a form of social security, as it is in all other advanced countries. The reason Republicans object to Obamacare is pure ideology. They basically object to it because (a) Obama, (b) government should not be involved in anything, © health care is not a right and you should only get what you pay for, like when you buy a washing machine, and (d) _ **your** _ health is not _ **my** _ problem. The corollary to © and (d) is a deep-rooted abiding fear that if one is not eternally vigilant, some poor person somewhere may get a benefit that he didn’t pay for. It doesn’t matter if that happens as part of an overall system where everyone benefits from lower costs, it’s some kind of Republican “principle”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-in-a-nutshell-exactly-what-the-republicans-object-to-re-obamacare/746358.md?page=3)