# Can someone explain musical chords to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 18, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988 "2015-04-18T14:04:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/21 "2015-04-19T14:17:33Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > I see your point but I’m a bit unconfortable calling C-D-E a chord, especially if there’re played in the same octave. I’d like a G in there and perhaps have the notes more “spread out” if you see what I mean to really consider it a chord. I know what you mean–I just have a looser definition (plus I do feel C-D-E in the right context satisfies a chord in the sense that it identifies a root, a major-or-minor feel, plus a color note. The fifth is not really a necessary note, and I often omit it in voicings. The root I may omit, too, depending on if another instrument is already playing it.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/22 "2015-04-19T14:22:18Z")
> [@CC](#): > > And this is exactly what I was referring to when I wrote, “… _if they don’t map to a large degree to some type of chord_ we tend to call them tone clusters.” We agree there. But, like I said, I personally just consider tone clusters a subset of chords. > [@](#): > > If the C,D,and E are clustered together, they will tend to lose the sense of dominance and be interpreted more as a tone cluster. See, when I hear C-D-E together where harmonically a C major chord is expected, that definitely sounds like a Cadd9 to me, not just a tone cluster. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/23 "2015-04-19T14:56:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > (plus I do feel C-D-E in the right context satisfies a chord in the sense that it identifies a root, a major-or-minor feel, plus a color note. That should say in “the traditional tertian harmony sense.” I’m fine with taking C-D-E on its own in a secundal harmony sense, as well or just a non-diatonic tone cluster. In any of these variations, it’s still a type of chord to me (and to most definitions of “chord” that I’m familiar with.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/24 "2015-04-19T20:58:34Z")
I’d say a chord is a tone cluster with a chord name. And all tone clusters can be named. CDE I would mostly likely see as Cadd2no5. Chord name are more ambiguous, though, since you can usually include the octaves of the notes you identify. Cadd2no5 can contain any combination of those three notes, as long as it contains each one at least once. (whether a C9 is a C9 if it’s topped with a high E gets weird, though. By my music theory class, this was not a proper C9 chord, though I’m sure jazz musicians have no problems with it.) ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/25 "2015-04-20T00:45:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’d say a chord is a tone cluster with a chord name. And all tone clusters can be named. CDE I would mostly likely see as Cadd2no5. > > Chord name are more ambiguous, though, since you can usually include the octaves of the notes you identify. Cadd2no5 can contain any combination of those three notes, as long as it contains each one at least once. > > (whether a C9 is a C9 if it’s topped with a high E gets weird, though. By my music theory class, this was not a proper C9 chord, though I’m sure jazz musicians have no problems with it.) C9 = C E G Bb D Cadd9 = C E G D C9 is a dominant chord Cadd9 is a major chord with an additional note ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/26 "2015-04-20T04:21:50Z")
> [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > C9 = C E G Bb D > > Cadd9 = C E G D > > C9 is a dominant chord > Cadd9 is a major chord with an additional note Just for the record, C E G is a C major C E G Bb is a C7. It’s a C major with a minor 7th added. C E G Bb D is a C9. It’s a C7 with an added 9th. C E G D is a Cadd9. It’s a C major with an added 9th. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/27 "2015-04-20T06:23:01Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > An octave is exactly double the frequency, and we call it an octave since in Western music we divide that range into 8 parts, which gives you the notes A, B, C, D, E, F, and G (and back to A again for the 8th step, in case you were wondering why there are only 7 letters). We further divide those with sharps and flats so that there ends up being 12 notes. I think it is 13 notes: there are five black keys for every eight white keys. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/28 "2015-04-20T06:40:31Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I think it is 13 notes: there are five black keys for every eight white keys. Huh? No, there isn’t. Seven white, five black. [Count them.](http://www.music-for-music-teachers.com/images/keyboard-with-note-names-2012.gif) A, A♯, B, C, C♯, D, D♯, E, F, F♯, G, G♯. Twelve. There’s a loose C at the far end of your piano keyboard, but that’s neither here nor there. (Not picking on you, but I keep hearing the “thirteen notes in an octave” thing every now and then, and I have no idea what the thirteenth note is supposed to be.) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/29 "2015-04-20T06:45:27Z")
It’s thirteen if you count the octave again at the end. [ol] [li]C[/li][li]C#/Db[/li][li]D[/li][li]D#/Eb[/li][li]E[/li][li]F[/li][li]F#/Gb[/li][li]G[/li][li]G#/Ab[/li][li]A[/li][li]A#/Bb[/li][li]B[/li][li]C[/li][/ol] ETA: Which is a silly thing, of course. Does the next octave then begin at D#??? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/30 "2015-04-20T13:00:26Z")
I’ve never really thought about it, as I’ve never heard anything other than 12 notes to the octave. But thinking about it now, I guess it can make some sort of sense. An octave, after all, has the root “oct,” meaning eight, so when counting scale notes, to make them eight, you would count the first and last note (although they are the same note, just an octave apart.) So if you did the same and included all the semi-tones, you’d get 13. It’s not how I count it, but it does make a kind of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/31 "2015-04-20T14:19:05Z")
That’s what’s sometimes called a “fencepost error”, after the classic example of a fence with a fencepost every 10 feet, and how many posts do you need for a 50’ fence. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/32 "2015-04-20T15:08:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s what’s sometimes called a “fencepost error”, after the classic example of a fence with a fencepost every 10 feet, and how many posts do you need for a 50’ fence. I’ve never heard that term before. I like it; it makes sense. Certainly in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/33 "2015-04-20T16:04:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s what’s sometimes called a “fencepost error”, after the classic example of a fence with a fencepost every 10 feet, and how many posts do you need for a 50’ fence. Interesting name for a useful concept. Gonna have to remember that. So which do you consider the error? The 12 interpretation or the 13 interpretation? Counting the fenceposts, so to speak, it seems that 13 is the one that is free of “fencepost error.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/34 "2015-04-20T16:07:12Z")
Or you could just make it unambiguous and say there are twelve notes in a chromatic scale, and seven notes that comprise a diatonic scale and leave the “octave” terminology out. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/35 "2015-04-20T16:13:35Z")
Note that many classic folk, such as the Romans, used “inclusive counting”. So 8 notes to an octave was a carry over from that back when Latin was still used heavily among educated people like composers. It also explains why Jesus rose “on the third day”, just two days after his crucifixion. (Depending on the Gospel/interpretation/etc.) As to the whole “chords have to sound nice to be called chords” thing. Not a lot of guitar players posting? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/36 "2015-04-20T16:29:06Z")
I just realized that it’s different when talking about intervals in a diatonic scale or distance in semitones. Or, rather, I did kind of know that, but I guess that I hadn’t thought about it in a fencepost sense. I always see it described as if the notes in an interval are fenceposts, while the distance in semitones are the gaps between them (and not just for the octave, but all intervals). Here’s what you’ll read in a description of intervals: C to F is a perfect fourth, which is a span of four notes: C, D, E, F [here you count both fenceposts]. This is a distance of five semitones [here you don’t count both ends, but go (don’t count the C), C#, D, D#, E, F.] C to G is a perfect fifth, which is a span of five notes: C, D, E, F, G [again, both fenceposts]. This is a distance of seven semitones [here you don’t count both ends, but go (don’t count the C), C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G]. That’s how I’ve been doing it, I guess, so that’s how I’ll keep doing it: When counting in intervals: Fenceposts. When counting in semitones: Distance from fencepost to fencepost. So for the octave, it spans eight notes\*, with a distance of twelve semitones from one end to the next. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it. (\*Or rather, I suppose, staff positions. Not that I ever lay eyes on a staff, since I can only play the guitar.) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/37 "2015-04-20T16:44:44Z")
(Too late for edit: ) Or, rather, like this: The diatonic scale: fenceposts. The chromatic scale: gaps between fenceposts. Or, I dunno. Does that work for you guys? Seems to work for me, but I’m short on caffeine at the moment, so who knows how much sense I’m making. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/38 "2015-04-20T17:39:45Z")
I guess learning violin kind of got me confused on this. Violin strings are spaced in even, perfect 5ths, G-\>D-\>A-\>E, but you rarely play an open string, so the “last stop” is where you play note for the next string. And, to my ear, playing two notes a full fifth apart is not a very pleasing sound, the violin forces you to stop strings in different places to get a decent chord playing two strings at once. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/39 "2015-04-20T17:53:38Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I don’t think that “officially” a chord has to consist of notes that sound good together. I have come across odd pairings of notes that really do sound off-to-quite-awful. But they’re played at the same time so they are chords. I somehow manage to play a lot of those chords on my guitar. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988/40 "2015-04-20T18:19:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I guess learning violin kind of got me confused on this. Violin strings are spaced in even, perfect 5ths, G-\>D-\>A-\>E, but you rarely play an open string, so the “last stop” is where you play note for the next string. And, to my ear, playing two notes a full fifth apart is not a very pleasing sound, the violin forces you to stop strings in different places to get a decent chord playing two strings at once. I grew up playing the violin too and I never learned about chords. When I took up the guitar as an adult, I had to relearn music theory. I still have trouble mastering the guitar fretboard because strings in fifths is so ingrained in me. On the violin, I always know what note I’m playing. On the guitar, it still takes me a moment—“I’m on the G string, fourth fret. That’s two whole tones, so G, A, B.” But I wonder about a couple of things in your post: 1. \*\*“but you rarely play an open string” \*\*— what? That’s not true. 2. \*\*“so the “last stop” is where you play note for the next string.” \*\*— I don’t quite understand what you mean—are you just saying that in first position you use your fourth finger to stop the note that’s the same as the next open string? If so, that’s not saying a whole lot. 3. \*\*“the violin forces you to stop strings in different places to get a decent chord playing two strings at once.” \*\*— there are plenty of guitar chords that require you to stop strings in different places. In fact only two common open chord shapes—A major and E minor—are stopping strings all on the same fret. Once you get beyond open chords, everything is barred, so you’re never just stopping strings at the same fret. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-musical-chords-to-me/717988.md?page=3)