# Can someone explain the Taylor Swift phenomenon to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 19, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339 "2023-03-19T02:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/202 "2023-08-02T13:58:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My tastes range from no-wave to pop, and I’d rather a Swift concert than a Swans one. lol I keep dropping requests on the young Gods records tour page for Swans to come to my area 😅 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/203 "2023-08-02T14:00:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > She’s bigger by far, and has been for years. I can’t agree with this. By no measure, adjusting for context, is she BIGGER than Madonna. You could argue she is as big. Hard to go above Numero Uno. The cultural phenomenon that was Madonna is perhaps being a little forgotten here. People were obsessed with her, for, honestly, basically all the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/204 "2023-08-02T14:08:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > By no measure, adjusting for context, is she BIGGER than Madonna By the measure of [certified units shifted](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists), she definitely is (especially when you _adjust your context_ to factor in the _much_ shorter time she’s been selling those units for). Although both pale in comparison to Rihanna. As a popular phenomenon? Naah, you’re looking at Madonna with the rosy glasses of youth. I was there too, I’m aware. I got _Smash Hits_ and the like. She _was_ a phenomenon, no quibble. So is Swift. Call me when seismologists publish records of Madge’s 80s concerts, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/205 "2023-08-03T08:10:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By the measure of [certified units shifted](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists), she definitely is (especially when you _adjust your context_ to factor in the _much_ shorter time she’s been selling those units for). TBF, world population around 1990, in the peak years of Madonna’s popularity, was a little over 5 billion. At present it’s nearly 8 billion. If you’re a world-famous music icon, how many records you sell in absolute terms is about not only your personal appeal, but also about how many potential customers for your records are existing on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/206 "2023-08-03T08:30:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > TBF, world population around 1990, in the peak years of Madonna’s popularity, was a little over 5 billion. At present it’s nearly 8 billion. Most of that growth did not come from the Madonna- or Taylor Swift-buying crowd. I highly doubt it signifies. The number you _want_ to compare is [22.2 million versus 25.1 million](https://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp) (1983 vs 2023, ages 12-17). Not such a giant jump, is it? But also, Madonna has been an active artist throughout that period, so the contemporaneous growth is already accounted for. It feels like people are really tying themselves into knots to avoid acknowledging that Taylor Swift is bigger than Madonna. And she’s not even the only one - MAriah Carey, Beyoncé and Rihanna are likewise bigger than Ms Ciccone was. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/207 "2023-08-03T10:22:25Z")
When John Lennon said that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus, I don’t think he was referring to album sales. In purely capitalist terms, Swift is bigger than Madonna. But “bigger” can have other, more subjective meanings, like cultural impact and influence on the music industry. I think that’s what some people are trying to discuss here. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/208 "2023-08-03T10:50:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > like cultural impact and influence on the music industry Still Swift, then. I mean, Congress held hearings because of her ticket sales mess… ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/209 "2023-08-03T10:53:25Z")
I get it. I mean, I don’t like pop music, I have zero Taylor Swift songs in my collection…but when her songs play on the radio I do find myself humming along to them. They seem to have more of a hook than comparable artists. And she’s good looking and a good singer, what’s not to like. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/210 "2023-08-03T10:56:52Z")
Personally, as an Elder Millennial, I don’t think I could identify a single Madonna song other than “Like a Prayer”. Tay-Tay is definitely a lot more influential to people my age and younger than Madonna ever was. I think one of the things that’s contributed to her staying power is that, unlike a lot of female pop singers who got big in their teens, she didn’t go through the rumspringa “I’m an adult now which means I can BE SEXY and HAVE SEX” cycle that comparable artists like Britney Spears or Katy Perry or Miley Cyrus did. She swears now, but other than that she’s kept her music relatable to tweens and teens even though she’s now in her thirties. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/211 "2023-08-03T11:02:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think one of the things that’s contributed to her staying power is that, unlike a lot of pop singers who got big in their teens, she didn’t go through the rumspringa “I’m an adult now which means I can BE SEXY and HAVE SEX” cycle that comparable artists like Britney Spears or Katy Perry or Miley Cyrus did. She swears now, but other than that she’s kept her music relatable to tweens and teens even though she’s now in her thirties. Yes, she’s very safe and stable. You always know what you’re going to get with her. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/212 "2023-08-03T12:06:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Congress held hearings because of her ticket sales mess… They also had hearings about alien bodies and UFOs, among many other subjects. Not that it matters here, but citing congressional hearings isn’t great support for an argument these days. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/213 "2023-08-03T12:20:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They also had hearings about alien bodies and UFOs, among many other subjects. …and UFOs and aliens are also things that have had a huge cultural impact. You make my point for me. > [@TriPolar](#): > > citing congressional hearings isn’t great support for an argument these days. Supports my point just fine. And it’s not just the one hearing, in any case, but also actual proposed bills, both federal and state. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/214 "2023-08-03T13:34:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yes, she’s very safe and stable. You always know what you’re going to get with her. I mean, she went from country pop to stadium pop, and then put up two indie albums with the dude from The National, so I don’t think that’s true. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/215 "2023-08-03T14:24:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > and UFOs and aliens are also things that have had a huge cultural impact. You make my point for me. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/216 "2023-08-03T15:11:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …and UFOs and aliens are also things that have had a huge cultural impact. You make my point for me. To be clear, because this place seems to get weirder every day, I acknowledge your point. While the current US congress can be seen as a useless and corrupt organization, they did take a bipartisan look at this matter, which they would not have done despite an existing apparent problem, had it not been concerning Taylor Swift and her performances. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/217 "2023-08-03T15:20:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Personally, as an Elder Millennial, I don’t think I could identify a single Madonna song other than “Like a Prayer”. Tay-Tay is definitely a lot more influential to people my age and younger than Madonna ever was. I was under the tutelage of Gen X, but I can name several of her albums, have listened to all of them, and have seen _Blonde Ambition_ and _The Girly Show_ and read _The Sex Book._ Then she had a documentary, I can’t remember the name but I’ve seen that too. I also know 90% of _Evita_ from memory. She was at peak awesome in the early 90s which would have put me at about age 7 or older. If you were watching MTV, I find it hard to believe you’ve never seen the music videos for Express Yourself, Take a Bow, Rain, Don’t Cry for Me Argentina and eventually, Ray of Light. She was huge in the 90s. People can quibble over whether Taylor Swift is bigger but to pretend Madonna had no cultural influence on late Millennials is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/218 "2023-08-03T15:27:56Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > People can quibble over whether Taylor Swift is bigger but to pretend Madonna had no cultural influence on late Millennials is ridiculous. Yeah, that statement was completely wrong. If by “Elder Millennial” you mean born in the very early 80s, then sorry no, Madonna was hugely impactful on that generation, _way_ more than Taylor Swift. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/219 "2023-08-03T20:32:33Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > . If you were watching MTV, I find it hard to believe you’ve never seen the music videos for Express Yourself, Take a Bow, Rain, Don’t Cry for Me Argentina and eventually, Ray of Light. She was huge in the 90s. Never did watch much MTV aside from Beavis and Butthead (and I mostly zoned out during the music video segments). Never saw any of those videos and my parents didn’t play that kind of music on the radiio. I grew up on the Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin and Queen and Pink Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/220 "2023-08-03T20:41:22Z")
Would someone please clarify what an ‘elder millennial’ is? If it’s not too much of an aside, does anyone know why people born in the late 90s (94?,95?,96?) are not millennials? I don’t know why 1981 is called the starting year instead of 1980 either. Was Reagan getting shot enough of an event to divide generational ages? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/221 "2023-08-03T20:46:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Would someone please clarify what an ‘elder millennial’ is? A person born roughly in the range of 1980-1984. Overlaps somewhat with “Xennial”. I was born in December 1982, which puts me right in the middle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=12)