# Can someone explain the Taylor Swift phenomenon to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 19, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339 "2023-03-19T02:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/222 "2023-08-03T20:55:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t know why 1981 is called the starting year instead of 1980 either. For what it’s worth, I was born in 1980 and I consider myself an Elder Millennial. I don’t think there is really any “official” starting year, and I identify more with Millennials than Gen Xers. Although for what it’s worth, one thing I don’t have in common with most Millennials is that I graduated from college and got a good job before the 2008 recession, and because of that was able to buy a house when they were cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/223 "2023-08-03T20:55:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Would someone please clarify what an ‘elder millennial’ is? Taken out of context, it does sound somewhat Lovecraftian, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/224 "2023-08-03T20:57:28Z")
AFAIK, Iliza Schlesinger coined the phrase. > **[Iliza Shlesinger: Elder Millennial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliza_Shlesinger:_Elder_Millennial)** > > Iliza Shlesinger: Elder Millennial is a 2018 American stand-up comedy film directed by Steve Paley and written by and starring Iliza Shlesinger, Iliza Shlesinger's fourth stand-up comedy special for Netflix, following War Paint from 2013, Freezing Hot from 2015 and Confirmed Kills from 2016. In Elder Millennial, Iliza talks about life at age 35 and more. It was released on July 24, 2018, on Netflix. > > This film article about a 2010s comedy film is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/225 "2023-08-03T21:39:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Never did watch much MTV aside from Beavis and Butthead (and I mostly zoned out during the music video segments). Never saw any of those videos and my parents didn’t play that kind of music on the radiio. Okay, so you were hopelessly out of touch with modern entertainment at the time. No shame in it, but I’d say you are an outlier in terms of “cultural impact.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/226 "2023-08-03T22:44:03Z")
Thanks for the info. It was hard to miss Madonna in the 80s, but I could see her influence fading quickly. I think she was a thing for kids born in the 60s and 70s, but if you were born in the 80s by the time you’re 10 she’s old news. I’m not much into music, so it’s an outsider’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/227 "2023-08-04T07:58:25Z")
I started college at 22 in 1996, and I remember a mandatory freshman creative writing course where they gave me an assignment to write about Madonna and her new child. I think the thrust of my essay was how irrelevant Madonna now was in these modern times. So if there was a turning point in her fame, I guess it was about then. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/228 "2023-08-04T09:10:26Z")
_I’m_ certainly not arguing that Madonna wasn’t a huge cultural icon of the 80s. She _definitely_ was. I’m arguing that Swift is bigger than Madonna. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/229 "2023-08-04T13:00:39Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > For what it’s worth, I was born in 1980 and I consider myself an Elder Millennial. Also a 1980 birth year, and I consider myself an Xennial. Anyways, Iet me throw my vote in that Madonna was huge culturally, but Swift is bigger. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/230 "2023-08-04T14:04:42Z")
Culturally Madonnas impact rocked our world, we saw her grow and evolve in her sexuality, her fashion, pushing boundaries and reinventing herself over and over. Taylor’s influence on our culture maybe has yet to be fully realized and will it be recognizable? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/231 "2023-08-04T14:21:26Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Culturally Madonnas impact rocked our world, we saw her grow and evolve in her sexuality, her fashion, pushing boundaries and reinventing herself over and over. Madonna’s cultural impact might be bigger than Swift’s so far but clearly Swift has gained a larger following. I hate to point this out, expecting backlash for doing so, but Madonna wasn’t all that talented as a performer. Her skill was creatively pushing the boundaries of public mores in her performances, perhaps better than Swift at that, but from the little I know that doesn’t seem to be what Swift is aiming for. Swift fans seem to identify with her at a personal level. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/232 "2023-08-04T14:45:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Her skill was creatively pushing the boundaries of public mores in her performances, perhaps better than Swift at that, but from the little I know that doesn’t seem to be what Swift is aiming for. Swift fans seem to identify with her at a personal level. As the father of a teenager I think kids these days (wince) are much less interested in pushing boundaries than we Gen-Xers were. I’d like to think that that’s because we’re much cooler parents than _our_ parents were, but I really, really doubt that’s true. Either way, rebellion isn’t really on the modern teen agenda. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/233 "2023-08-04T16:05:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Either way, rebellion isn’t really on the modern teen agenda. Well, not _empty_ rebellion. > [@chela](#): > > we saw her grow and evolve in her sexuality, her fashion, pushing boundaries and reinventing herself over and over. Swift has done all that too. > [@chela](#): > > Taylor’s influence on our culture maybe has yet to be fully realized Given that it’s already bigger than Madonna’s, that’s a point _for_ her. > [@chela](#): > > will it be recognizable? I mean, some of it is [on public record](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/3660?s=1&r=2)… and [scientific record](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/27/entertainment/taylor-swift-seismic-activity/index.html). Wait, let’s ask [Harvard](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/08/so-what-exactly-makes-taylor-swift-so-great/)… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/234 "2023-08-04T16:19:32Z")
I get that she’s really big, I’m just bewildered that people are so besotted with someone so bland, so vanilla, so middle-of-the-road. I guess the music industry finally managed to concoct the perfect product. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/235 "2023-08-04T16:21:01Z")
I feel like Madonna was really important to queer teenagers. And swift plays more to conventional teens. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/236 "2023-08-04T16:40:11Z")
One of the interviewees in the article @MrDibble linked was a queer woman saying how important Swift is to her. Swift has a _very_ large gay following. I’m Gen X, and Madonna had a much bigger impact on me personally than Taylor Swift. I lived through peak Madonna years (in her home state, where she got extra publicity), I was a fan from “Borderline” through the “Like a Virgin” peak into her club years of “Vogue” and “Ray of Light.” Hell, I even like her James Bond theme, which is universally hated. But it’s insane to try to argue that Madonna was bigger than Swift in any way. There really is no comparison. If (generic) you aren’t listening to radio, if you are streaming music only from the 70s-90s, then it’s understandable that you don’t see her impact and relevance. The one area I think they are comparable is on the business side, their ability to create a brand persona and promote it. Madonna excelled at that - just look at how big she was, without the musical talent that Swift brings. And @Alessan, a singer can have one big hit by being bland, vanilla, middle-of-the-road. They don’t achieve Swift’s level of superstar by being that. She might not be your taste, but she is anything but middle of the road. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/237 "2023-08-04T16:52:22Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And swift plays more to conventional teens. She’s [a big queer icon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g86MCp5Goaw) to some. And [walks the walk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Need_to_Calm_Down#Impact) - not just queerbaiting at the VMAs. There’s also the dumb “Gaylor” conspiracy… [Lesbian Jesus is a fan, too](https://www.eonline.com/videos/292473/hayley-kiyoko-gushes-over-being-in-taylor-swifts-music-video). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/238 "2023-08-04T16:56:17Z")
Cool. I don’t listen to a lot of music, either now or when Madonna was big. So I have no personal basis to compare. I did listen to a handful of Swift’s songs because of this thread, and I can sign on to “she’s more musically talented than Madonna”. I like some of Madonna’s tunes (I have danced to them) but she never struck me a great talent. She is an excellent businesswoman, but Swift is obviously also an excellent businesswoman. You don’t make that much money without talents outside of “makes good music”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/239 "2023-08-04T16:59:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m just bewildered that people are so besotted with someone so bland, so vanilla, so middle-of-the-road. I’ll put my alt-music _bona fides_ against anyone else’s, and I contend she’s none of those things. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/240 "2023-08-04T17:02:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I get that she’s really big, I’m just bewildered that people are so besotted with someone so bland, so vanilla, so middle-of-the-road. I guess the music industry finally managed to concoct the perfect product. I guess this is where I fall. The first time I saw her sing one of her songs was on SNL, and I was not impressed. The song was shallow, and her performance was all “I’m so sexy” while not being terribly sexy at all was off-putting. I could see her as having the kind of songs you listen to on the car radio, but forget as soon as you get out of the car. And she had a rich daddy who really pushed her early career. Yeah, she has some talent, but that kind of thing really helps. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/241 "2023-08-04T17:13:06Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > Yeah, she has some talent, but that kind of thing really helps. Which is why Paris Hilton is a huge music star … /s [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=13)