# Can someone explain the Taylor Swift phenomenon to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 19, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339 "2023-03-19T02:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/262 "2023-08-04T23:40:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > overproduced pop music, Pretty much my definition of Madonna ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/263 "2023-08-04T23:48:10Z")
Mine too! ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2023, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/264 "2023-08-04T23:58:42Z")
I find that in America, there is a tendency to dismiss anything that is popular with young women as trivial. Just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/265 "2023-08-05T00:00:21Z")
Not just in America, it’s essentially world wide. When men get to define what has value, what young women value is always trashed as worthless. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/266 "2023-08-05T00:27:21Z")
In some sense, the comparison between Madonna and Taylor Swift is a lot like comparing GOATs in sports from different eras. Different rules, different competition, different approaches to the game by coaches. For good or ill, Bill Russell and Elgin Baylor have fallen out of the GOAT conversation in professional basketball, and not because of lack of talent or domination of the game… Madonna’s peak was prior to the era of social media. It’s hard to compare 80’s-90’s popstardom to 2010’s to 2020’s stars.The current omnipresence of social media amplifies, for good or bad, the influence of popstars and comparing “talent” is a subjective exercise in futility. A better debate might be whether Beyoncé or Taylor Swift is going to be looked back on as the “biggest star” of this era. ---
**Author:** ![Frosted\_Glass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frosted_glass/32/3926_2.png) [@Frosted\_Glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frosted_Glass)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/267 "2023-08-05T01:04:03Z")
It’s kind of funny to watch folks debate the talent, power, and influence of Taylor Swift. Taylor-gating (Tayl-gating?) is when people flock to parking lots and adjacent areas to experience her concerts and cities started preemptively shutting down these gatherings as her most recent tour went on: > **[Taylor Swift fans are 'Taylor-gating' at her concerts. Here's what that means](https://www.today.com/popculture/music/taylor-gating-taylor-swift-eras-tour-explainer-rcna85218)** > > Swifties are taking over streets and parking lots near the Eras Tour venues to sing along to their favorite songs. > **[Arrowhead Stadium cracks down on “Taylor-gating” ahead of July concerts](https://www.kctv5.com/2023/06/28/arrowhead-stadium-cracks-down-taylor-gating-ahead-july-concerts/)** > > Arrowhead Stadium is hoping to curb the amount of fans planning to stand outside Taylor Swift's July 7 and 8 performances, a trend observed in stadiums across the country. She may not be my cup of tea, but it’s hard to deny that she’s an absolute rock star. I probably only know a few of her songs but I’m familiar enough to recognize them when I’m at the grocery store, coffee shop, or mall. Even my senior citizen parents knew who she was before the [Kanye VMA incident](https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/8/26/20828559/taylor-swift-kanye-west-2009-mtv-vmas-explained) and they only listen to Jazz, R&B, and Motown. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Come on, don’t be one of those people who feels the need to crap on young people’s music. I’m Gen X and I thought Madonna was straight up pop trash for the basics. If you liked her, that’s cool, but don’t pretend it was anything more than what the Monkees accomplished. > > Swift seems to speak to a generation of young women, that’s a nice change from decades of bro culture bullshit. I love this! My dad always used to say “Get out of your damn head and actually listen. It may not be for you but you can understand it if you’re open.” I used to laughed that off as an old person trying to relate until I started teaching and then it made perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/268 "2023-08-05T03:34:53Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > I guess this is where I fall. The first time I saw her sing one of her songs was on SNL, and I was not impressed. The song was shallow, and her performance was all “I’m so sexy” while not being terribly sexy at all was off-putting. I could see her as having the kind of songs you listen to on the car radio, but forget as soon as you get out of the car. Have you heard any other of her songs? My daughter played a lot of her stuff in the 2010’s. _Really_ catchy and easy to relate to. Everyone has a stinker now and then (to me, it was her god-awful song about Kenye dissing her, but I suspect my opinion is in the minority). ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/269 "2023-08-05T04:58:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > mandatory freshman creative writing course where they gave me an assignment to write about Madonna and her new child. I think the thrust of my essay was how irrelevant Madonna now was in these modern times Awww, you didn’t go with a religious parody? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/270 "2023-08-05T06:15:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > overproduced pop music, That’s not a thing, IMO. A song can be well produced, or poorly produced, but not over produced. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/271 "2023-08-05T06:33:02Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > A song can be well produced, or poorly produced, but not over produced. That’s not really what “overproduced” means. My view is similar to what Wikipedia defines it as: > **[Overproduction (music)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overproduction_(music))** > > Overproduction is the excessive use of audio effects, layering, or digital manipulation in music production. > It is not always clear what critics mean by "overproduction", but there are a minimum of a few common uses of the term: > All five of these meanings share the idea that a record producer or mastering engineer has made "unnecessary" additions or changes to a record in the production process and, in doing so, has decreased the quality or enjoyability of the music. There is little consensus a... > - Heavy use of audio processing effects such as reverb, delay, or dynamic range compression. > - Heavy layering or multitracking; in the context of pop and rock music, this may refer to the addition of elements such as chorused vocals or backing strings. > - Radio versions of songs pushed to be more “pop” through the use of loud drum beats or other instrumentation changes. > - Heavy use of pitch correction, time correction, or quantization. > - A recording overseen by a producer who “imposes” their own distinctive “sound” or techniques on a band or artist; Producers frequently accused of this kind of “overproduction” include Phil Spector[1][2] and Mutt Lange.[3] The second one in particular I think gives pop music its distinct sound. The vocals are not natural-sounding due to the layering. Personally, I find it so unpleasant that I can hardly stand to listen to most modern(ish) pop. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/272 "2023-08-05T07:26:57Z")
Good thing Taylor’s songs [sound just fine live with just a single mic and one instrument](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvVnP8G6ITs). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/273 "2023-08-05T07:38:05Z")
Huh, that’s the first music in this thread that I didn’t find an urge to stop after about a minute. To my ears, she sounds much, _much_ better in that context (and clearly has genuine talent). Seriously, thanks for the link. It really is mostly the pop sound that I hate (especially the countrified pop sound). ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/274 "2023-08-05T13:10:08Z")
It’s not surprising that old people don’t like young people music. In the middle of the previous century, old people complained about the music that then young people liked. Now that music is used to sell old people stuff. Making music that old people don’t like is a feature, not a bug. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/275 "2023-08-05T14:06:41Z")
Some of her videos that she also writes and produces, are fun to watch. Bejeweled has a few celebrity cameos, if I’m not mistaken, Laura Dern and Dita Von Tease. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/276 "2023-08-05T14:25:27Z")
60 years ago: Can someone explain the Beatles phenomenon to me? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/277 "2023-08-05T15:06:28Z")
Kids, they like anything new that annoys their parents…and that hair! They won’t last. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/278 "2023-08-05T15:08:29Z")
There is a cycle where older generations reject the music of their offspring, but the Beatles represented a far larger change to the course of music than Madonna and Taylor Swift have. It didn’t really start with the Beatles, nor was it all about music either, and it’s not now. But I don’t see parents all worried about their kids turning out like Taylor Swift, it’s quite the opposite, she represents what most people consider wholesome values these days. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/279 "2023-08-05T16:26:26Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > - Heavy use of audio processing effects such as reverb, delay, or dynamic range compression. > - Heavy layering or multitracking; in the context of pop and rock music, this may refer to the addition of elements such as chorused vocals or backing strings. > - Radio versions of songs pushed to be more “pop” through the use of loud drum beats or other instrumentation changes. > - Heavy use of pitch correction, time correction, or quantization. > - A recording overseen by a producer who “imposes” their own distinctive “sound” or techniques on a band or artist; Producers frequently accused of this kind of “overproduction” include Phil Spector[1][2] and Mutt Lange.[3] (Above quoted from the Wikipedia article on “overproduction”) That all sounds fine to me, in itself. A song with all those characteristics can still be either well produced or poorly produced. I’ve heard many terrific songs with, say, heavy layering. As an aside, I love modern pop music. Some of it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/280 "2023-08-05T16:59:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > There is a cycle where older generations reject the music of their offspring Kids these days and their damned atonal xenharmonic a cappella ultrasonic hyper-pop… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/281 "2023-08-05T17:16:05Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Kids, they like anything new that annoys their parents…and that hair! If Swift annoyed me more she’d annoy me much less. By which I mean that she’s so wholesome and affable that no parent could ever find her offensive - which worries me. What the hell is wrong with these kids? Children’s music _should_ anger their parents! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=15)