# Can someone explain the Taylor Swift phenomenon to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 19, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339 "2023-03-19T02:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/302 "2023-08-07T06:36:45Z")
I’d say it’s a toss-up between her and Beyoncé, famewise, but that Taylor’s rising and Beyoncé is sliding - Swift just produces more material, for one thing, and is more PG for another. Although full disclosure, I personally don’t like Beyoncé for her history of plagiarism, so my perception may be biased. Rihanna was also in there but I feel has faded from the radar a bit as the “it” singer. The odd soundtrack song doesn’t keep you current. She still is the bestseller, though. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/303 "2023-08-07T19:14:13Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > It’s a normal expectation for mature PARENTS that their kids aren’t simply inheriting all their beliefs and mores and by late teens they are questioning and challenging some of them. My parents challenged my grandparents’ beliefs and expectations. And I did the same with my parents. I’m self aware enough to know I didn’t perfect my worldview. Well, my teen didn’t inherit my tastes because I don’t push my tastes on him. He likes some of what I like and he recommends things I sometimes like. Other stuff he doesn’t like. No big deal. He doesn’t “rebel” against my tastes. I’m certainly not disappointed that he’s not outright rejecting my likes because he needs to “challenge my worldview”. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/304 "2023-08-07T19:37:24Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Shake it off is great fun. Hey, the pigs in Sing sang that one! ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/305 "2023-08-07T21:10:38Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I find that in America, there is a tendency to dismiss anything that is popular with young women as trivial. Just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value. So very, very extremely true. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/306 "2023-08-08T15:31:37Z")
I second listening to Folklore if you don’t like typical pop but if you really want to avoid overproduction check out the Long Pond Studio Sessions. I think the entire album/documentary is on Disney plus but most of the songs are on YouTube. I would recommend something like Illicit Affairs. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/307 "2023-08-08T16:49:52Z")
I do admire her resistance thus far to collabs with McDonalds and the Super Bowl. Stay strong Tay! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/308 "2023-08-08T17:33:41Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > It’s a normal expectation for mature PARENTS that their kids aren’t simply inheriting all their beliefs and mores and by late teens they are questioning and challenging some of them. My parents challenged my grandparents’ beliefs and expectations. And I did the same with my parents. I’m self aware enough to know I didn’t perfect my worldview. It’s pretty critical for teen development to rebel against their parents, I would say. I know some don’t. I tried constantly to please my parents though I did eventually rebel against being mistreated. So I wouldn’t say that every kid must rebel against their parents. But if the majority aren’t rebelling that’s weird and not consistent with previous generations. But it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s all bound up in the decrease in unsupervised play, helicopter parenting mental health crisis extended adolescence thing that’s going on now. I think a lot of parents are overcorrecting for their own bad childhoods and inadvertently making it more difficult for children to develop an autonomous sense of self. I’m not saying that’s true in every case, but at the population level there are marked differences between this generation and last, and they are mostly showing that gen Z is worse off than previous generations. So I am not inclined to think of lack of rebellion as a _good_ thing. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/309 "2023-08-08T17:58:40Z")
This conversation reminds me of a progressive couple at church, whose son decided to rebel by becoming a hard core Republican (not sure if he went full Trumper, but if so the parents would have been appalled). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/310 "2023-08-08T18:03:10Z")
AKA The Alex P. Keaton syndrome. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/311 "2023-08-08T18:44:32Z")
Keaton I could deal with. DeSantis Jr., not so much. I for one hope my kid sticks to grumpiness and loud music. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/312 "2023-08-08T19:17:29Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It’s pretty critical for teen development to rebel against their parents, I would say. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/313 "2023-08-08T19:40:28Z")
I mean, she has “I would say” right there. If ever there was a case of “my post is my cite,” that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/314 "2023-08-08T19:48:30Z")
I mean, I’m just stating my opinion, but I’m curious so I looked into it. I’m certainly not wrong that rebellion has been considered by many developmental psychologists to be a natural stage in adolescence. > **[Rebel with a Cause: Rebellion in Adolescence](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/surviving-your-childs-adolescence/200912/rebel-cause-rebellion-in-adolescence)** > > ...and why the antidote is not punishment but real independence. > **[Teenage rebellion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_rebellion)** > > Teenage rebellion is a part of social development in adolescents in order for them to develop an identity independent from their parents or family and a capacity for independent decision-making. They may experiment with different roles, behaviors, and ideologies as part of this process of developing an identity. Teenage rebellion has been recognized within psychology as a set of behavioral traits that supersede class, culture, or race; some psychologists, however, have disputed the unive There re... [https://www.medicinenet.com/why\_does\_teenage\_rebellion\_happen/article.htm#:~:text=Teenage%20rebellion%20can%20be%20a,independence%20and%20a%20separate%20identity](https://www.medicinenet.com/why_does_teenage_rebellion_happen/article.htm#:~:text=Teenage%20rebellion%20can%20be%20a,independence%20and%20a%20separate%20identity). There has been some pushback on that idea though. Some claim it’s not universal. The thing to keep in mind here is that a lot of psychology is not firmly grounded in evidence, so I can’t even say, “A bunch of psychologists think this is true, therefore it’s true.” Unfortunately every scholarly article I’ve found that might help us sort through the facts is behind a paywall. However on second thought I’ve seen a ton of rebellion in Zoomers. What else is Black Lives Matter? Rebellion for a good cause to be sure, but absolutely rebellion against authority. What is quiet quitting but rebellion against hustle culture? r/antiwork? The kids are certainly rebelling. They’ve rejected a lot of their parents’ views of the place work should have in their lives, they’ve rejected a lot of their parents’ enlightened centrism, they are significantly more progressive, I’m not sure how else to parse that. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/315 "2023-08-08T20:10:50Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > > It’s pretty critical for teen development to rebel against their parents, I would say. > > Cite? I don’t have to answer you! You’re not my real father! ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/316 "2023-08-09T01:11:37Z")
I was just, out of curiousity, checking Taylor Swift ticket prices for her Toronto show and they range from $2000 to $16000, which just astonishes the crap out of me. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/317 "2023-08-09T02:15:13Z")
Yeah, back when I was concert-going, the typical price range was literally a hundred times lower. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/318 "2023-08-09T02:46:02Z")
I am pretty sure those are resale ticket prices. Here in the US at least, you could get tickets starting at $49 US if you got into the pre-sale. ---
**Author:** ![Danger\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@Danger\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/319 "2023-08-09T09:46:21Z")
I spent a few hours today listening to Taylor Swift on some high quality headphones. I will have to agree that it is really good pop music. It’s not something I would seek out, but I enjoy listening to it. It may just be my tastes, but I still find someone like Beyoncé and Rihanna more interesting, with more of an edge. Comparing it to earlier pop music (like The Beatles, Madonna, Wham, Michael Jackson), it is in many ways more professional and has a higher production value. It is also more consistent. There are fewer really bad songs. I think that is what my generation finds a bit boring. It just sounds a bit more bland, while the earlier music had its ups and downs. We remember the hits and forget the rest. I also think it’s unfair to compare, as pop music has matured and it’s harder to innovate than before. It’s harder to become another Rolling Stones, because that has already been done. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/320 "2023-08-09T11:05:23Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I am pretty sure those are resale ticket prices. Here in the US at least, you could get tickets starting at $49 US if you got into the pre-sale. Now that you mention it you’re probably right. I just googled “Taylor Swift toronto” or something like that. I didn’t go to an official site. ---
**Author:** ![Kelby2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ebca7d/32.png) [@Kelby2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby2)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/321 "2023-08-09T14:30:46Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > I was just, out of curiousity, checking Taylor Swift ticket prices for her Toronto show and they range from $2000 to $16000, which just astonishes the crap out of me. I think my daughter paid about $400 to see her recent show in Denver. That compares to the total amount of money her old man has spent in a lifetime of concert attendance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=17)