# Can someone explain the Taylor Swift phenomenon to me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [March 19, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339 "2023-03-19T02:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/522 "2023-11-04T16:48:58Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > To reverse the question: Would Mozart be known in the year 2423 if he was just getting started today? I’d guess probably not. I don’t think _anyone_ getting started now is likely to be widely known in 400 years regardless of artistic talent. There would have been plenty of musicians during the time of Mozart. He’s known today above others from his era because of his talent. I think he would be remembered 400 years from now if he started today. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/523 "2023-11-04T16:51:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I think he would be remembered 400 years from now if he started today. But the thing is if he started today he just wouldn’t write the same music. His innate genius would not be realized - he would be wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/524 "2023-11-04T16:58:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But the thing is if he started today he just wouldn’t write the same music. His innate genius would never be realized - he would be wasted. The type of music still exists today with new musicians coming on line and writing new music. If you’re argument is that he would start with contemporary music I would expect his level of talent to excel. He wrote symphonies and truly understood music. Think of someone along the lines of Ray Charles who could cross over to a variety of music styles. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/525 "2023-11-04T17:03:21Z")
Do you think Ray Charles will be widely known or used as cultural shorthand for “musical genius” in 400 years? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/526 "2023-11-04T17:09:41Z")
I don’t know if he will be compared to Mozart but I think he will outlast Taylor Swift. And that could easily happen in her lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/527 "2023-11-04T17:15:29Z")
They’ll either both last or both disappear, IMHO. I don’t see any way Ray Charles outlasts Taylor Swift. Both are important historically. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/528 "2023-11-04T17:40:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t know if he will be compared to Mozart but I think he will outlast Taylor Swift. And that could easily happen in her lifetime. Swift is obviously vastly more popular, hardly a flash in the pan. Are you arguing that Ray Charles is in some non-subjective way “better”? I think one could try to make a case that Mozart is objectively “greater” music than recent/contemporary popular music, under some arguable definition of “great”. But I really can’t conceive of how you’d go about making any similar argument for Charles vs Swift. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/529 "2023-11-04T17:43:22Z")
People (mostly of a certain gender and generation) are vastly underestimating the impact Taylor Swift has made in music across the past decade or so. I’ll leave aside the likely reasons for that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/530 "2023-11-04T17:49:34Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > I’ll leave aside the likely reasons for that. I think snobbishness and a parochial failure of insight that one’s personal subjective preferences are not _objectively_ better are sufficient to explain it, without insinuations of misogyny. This combination of snobbishness and parochial failure of insight are exactly what lead many people to condemn other people’s language use as ignorant rather than just different. Language “pet peeve” threads and “this incredibly popular music is rubbish” threads have a lot in common, intersecting at “things younger people do” and “things people that are in a lower class than me do”. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/531 "2023-11-04T17:51:12Z")
Apples and oranges. (Wasn’t Mozart actually a child prodigy and probably belittled by more established composers of his day?) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/532 "2023-11-04T18:00:20Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > belittled by more established composers I don’t see a parallel there. The _Amadeus_ story is fiction, but in any case the attempt to sabotage Mozart was because his rival knew he was so much better. I don’t think people who are belittling Taylor Swift privately understand that she’s a genius. I think they are sincere but ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/533 "2023-11-04T18:19:53Z")
Never saw _Amadeus_ But I read he was not widely acclaimed or, I guess, revered til after his death. He was popular for a time but was falling out of favor because his music was too complex. You know writers of biographies of long dead people often just create an image that they alone perceived. I wouldn’t have an opinion as to their accuracy. My point was he was very young when he was discovered and I’m thinking established adult composers at the time discounted him til he proved his worth. One never knows. Every successful artist has dues to pay. They just don’t jump out and just become the “greatest” overnight. As much as it seems so. I think Taylor Swift has paid her dues. Whether she’s liked by everyone is inconsequential. She’s liked by enough to make her very very successful. I’m happy for her. She has talent and deserves it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/534 "2023-11-04T18:44:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Swift is obviously vastly more popular, hardly a flash in the pan. Are you arguing that Ray Charles is in some non-subjective way “better”? Yes, I would say that Ray Charles is substantially better than Taylor Swift on every level. He has a better voice, his songs stand out individually from each other and have greater depth. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/535 "2023-11-04T18:46:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, I would say that Ray Charles is substantially better than Taylor Swift on every level. He has a better voice, his songs stand out individually from each other and have greater depth. It is always so bizarre to me that people think there’s an objective standard by which to measure art, and it just so happens to line up with their demographics and experience. I suppose it’s a little bit like assuming that the religion you happened to be born into is objectively the correct religion. Just lucky, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/536 "2023-11-04T18:52:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > his songs stand out individually from each other This one is _especially_ silly as an objective claim. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/537 "2023-11-04T19:08:29Z")
Ray Charles didn’t even write his most well-known hit. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/538 "2023-11-04T19:14:47Z")
What’s the ratio of male fans to female fans? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/539 "2023-11-04T19:21:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Ray Charles didn’t even write his most well-known hit. It’s not the words that make a song. It’s the notes and how they’re played and sung. Look at “All Along the Watchtower”. It’s a Bob Dylan song that is heavily covered by other bands. If you google it the first thing that comes up is Jimi Hendrix. His version stands out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/540 "2023-11-04T19:25:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not the words that make a song. It’s the notes and how they’re played and sung. Hard disagree for many, many songs. It’s _all_ those things. Including _Georgia On My Mind_. And _All Along The Watchtower_. But in any case, Ray Charles didn’t write the _music_ for _GOMM_ either. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339/541 "2023-11-04T19:27:36Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This one is _especially_ silly as an objective claim. I strongly disagree. IMO it’s a trademark of a good musician or band. If the songs don’t stand out from each other then essentially they all run together. It’s difficult to create distinct music and also maintain the band or musician’s “sound”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-someone-explain-the-taylor-swift-phenomenon-to-me/981339.md?page=28)